Hi all. My father-in-law totaled his 911 during his second driver's ed event. He was in the lowest group, and did not pass, have the event times, or do any racing. Nationwide denied his claim, not because he was racing (the policy did not have this exclusion) but because it said he "increased his risk of harm" under the policy without notifying Nationwide. (He did, BTW, call his agent before the event to ask if he was covered, which the agent now "can't remember").

I'm wondering if any of you have had experience with Nationwide or any other insurance companies EITHER positive or negative after a loss at a driver's ed event? This information would be very helpful in helping my father-in-law with his claim.

Many thanks. Email me offline if you like.
Mark

 

The agent can't make commitments for the company, you need to correspond with an underwriter. This sounds like your father-in-law should at least consider legal consultation.

 

I would be interested on how this is resolved. There are threads where the insurance companies paid. However, these were stories about previous events. This is the first post I am aware of that is current.

I would agree that a legal consultation is warranted. I've looked at my policy, and nowhere is a drivers education event excluded. Also, nowhere does it say that I have to contact my underwriter prior to a driving event. Increased his risk of harm? What does that mean? That is not in my policy, and I'm sure neither is it in yours. If I drive in NY city, am I "increasing my risk of harm"? If I decide to drive while it's snowing, should I call the underwriter first?

Good luck, and keep us updated!!

 

I agree..consult a lawyer. I've seen a lot of wrecks in DE events over the last 6-7 years and never heard of any claim being denied.

On the other hand...a few weeks ago, we had a 911 wreck. I mentioned to the driver that his insurance should cover the damage. The problem was that he'd just received a check for a previous DE claim...from the previous week! Oops.

 

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> Get a Lawyer!!! Unless DE events are specificly excluded, your covered. But after the first claim they may "exclude" these type of activities.

 

Afew years ago when I crashed my 911 at Lime Rock, the insurer balked at paying. My agent (who I consulted with before hand regarding DE coverage) stepped in to help me. They paid. Not sure if they would again though.

 

An insurance policy is a contract. The terms of the document will control. Probably very few current policies of insurance employ the term "driver's education".

On the other hand, modern automobile liability policies may make reference to "contests", "competitions", "track", "speedway"or "raceway", etc.

Please let us know here how you (or you or your father-in -law) make out.

Richard
'87 Carrera-3.6L

 

The general rule according to insurance law is that collision damage to the auto is covered unless the damage comes within one of the policy exclusions.

The exclusions need to be read very carefully. If there is some general exclusion for "increased risk" as claimed, and if that exclusion is enforceable under your state's law, then it becomes a question of fact whether a DE event constitutes a defensible increased risk or not.

Matt

 

I got paid in full, via The Hartford, on a Lime Rock off during a Metro DE. Assuming this was a PCA event, I'm certain the sponsoring region has a set of DE rules that you can get a copy of. They are often printed with the application. They're written to insure safety AND to help the region with insurance liablility.

Sending a copy of these rules to the agency was very helpful in my claim. I first spoke to my agent to determine any written exclusions. The DE didn't rules hit upon any of the exclusions.

Is the "increased his risk of harm" that you mention, written in your policy? It sounds awfully subjective, and if that's the only exclusion a good lawyer armed with your policy and the DE's rules/regs should be able to help you.

 

Get a lawyer to write a letter and you will probably find them much more cooperative. BTW, start looking for a new insurance company BEFORE your current one drops you (as they will now)

 

How can going 90 mph sideways on the diving turn at Lime Rock not be considered "increased risk"?

 

Hello,

Couple of thoughts on this matter:

1. Does the policy mention anything about motorsports
facilities? Forget about "driver ed" I would think that
insurance companies would not want to cover you when
you are driving on a race track or motorsports facility.

2. Do you (or anyone else) think that the insurance
company SHOULD pay this claim? Do you really think that
your insurance premium is priced accordingly if the insurance company knew you were going to drive on
the race track?

Honestly, even though there are cases where insurance
companies have paid these sort of claims, I don't think
that is TRUELY what your automobile insurance is designed
for.

Personally, I think that if you are going to take your
car on the track, and you want insurance in case something
bad happens, you should purchase the correct type
of insurance.

Barry
Barry Lenoble
lenoble@optonline.net
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/drive944/" target="_blank">http://members.rennlist.com/drive944/</a>

 

Whether the insurance company subjectively thinks it should or shouldn't be liable for this type of claim doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not the policy excludes it. The insurance company wrote (or the state mandates) the language in your policy, and you've paid for the coverage that it describes. (Conversely, the company doesn't care whether the insured thinks a claim should or shouldn't be paid - if it's excluded, the company won't pay, nor should it).

I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for insurers to explicitly exclude
DE accidents. But many policies evidently don't, and the only way to tell is to read yours carefully.

It seems most policies cover damage incurred at pure DE events (no time trials, competition, etc). In most of the instances I've heard of, the company has paid. The policies generally exclude damage in competition, times events, or practice for such events, but do not have a blanket exclusion for race tracks.

I know from experience with someone else's crash that a polite, detailed letter describing the nature of the event, accompanied by appropriate club literature, web site links, etc, and an offer to provide other info that may be requested, can help an insurer conclude that coverage exists.

Matt

 

[quote]Originally posted by Matt:
<strong>Whether the insurance company subjectively thinks it should or shouldn't be liable for this type of claim doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not the policy excludes it. The insurance company wrote (or the state mandates) the language in your policy, and you've paid for the coverage that it describes.
Matt</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, that is quite true, and believe me, I have no soft spot for insurance companies.

What I am afraid of is a backlash against Porsche owners, and / or PCA members, because a few people don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions. I don't want my rates to be raised because others crash on the track, and I end up paying for it. And don't kid yourself, it won't take very long before the insurance companies add the right language and exclusions.

Do you want to have your coverage dropped because you drive on the track?

Barry

 

Per Barry Personally, I think that if you are going to take your car on the track, and you want insurance in case something
bad happens, you should purchase the correct type
of insurance.


Hi Barry. I agree, but when I put my claim in to The Hartford I was 100% honest. Per JC's comment above, although it sounds funny, I told them it was at Lime Rock Park on the downhill turn.

As Matt says, the insurance company is not going to pay for any non-covered condition. Lying to your insurance company is cheating, and others (we) wind up paying for it; however, if you're truthful and it's covered, you should put in a claim and get paid for it. If they eventually exclude DE's from the policy, I'd understand and get other insurance. Until then, I think we should be honest and let the insurance company pay or not pay according to the policy.