Palting

I've been taking my C4S to DE, and have been enjoying it immensely. Guilt often comes in since it is a new car that took quite a deep bite into the pocket. I've recently been to an autocross, and marveled at the way the 944's were literally whipping about those cones. There was a vey nice 944 that was for sale, well kept, track prepped with various performance mods but still street legal.

My question: Can I find happiness at the track with it, or have I been spoiled by the power and updates on the C4S and be disapointed? I plan to do DE's more than autocross. Even if I got the 944, I will still keep the C4S as the "glam car".

ltc

Palting,
I went thru a similar decision process with my 996TT. I drove 944/951 and 911/964's looking for a DE car. Settled on the 964 (94 RSAmerica).

The 944/951's are less expensive, tuneable and well balanced and readily available. Like most Pcars, the bugs are well known and fairly easy to fix/update.
However, once I drove/heard the 964, that was it, especially the manual steering on the RSA; great feedback and feel. Have been very happy with that decision.
Either way, it's nice having a DE car, so the 996TT can go back to garage queen status!

DJF1

Went through the same thought process with you and the same debate. I used to have a 968 which I loved on the track, but after I sorted out the 993 it was too difficult to return. The 944 is a great handling car , I used to own one as well, but unless you get the Turbo there is not much power there. While this may not be a problem for the first season or so, your craving for more power especially as you become faster will increase. I thought hard about this, the initial investment was very low and seemed to worth every penny, but that magic the 911 has on me deep inside I knew i would always want to run my 993 instead of the 944.I also did not want to run a turbo due to the temperament of T cars ( narrow working band, lag etc) so I ended up deciding on a 964. Relatively bargain priced nowdays, a modern 911, light with a lot of potential to become a very competitive and fast car in the future with the ton of mods available for the 964's as they were raced extensively and proffessionally all over the world. The 944 /968 was pretty weak in racing development and suppliers in my comparison. In my search for a 964 I stumbled accross a bargain priced 993 so really it was a nobrainer for me to get her, but I still believe that an early 964 which can be had for about 20K nowdays is a great bargain and a great track car.

Mike in Chi

Palting

I don't know if a 996 owner can be happy with a 944 track car, but I hope a 993 owner can be.

Some good discussion above already. I opted for the inexpensive route, since I hope to let my son share it as well. If the car gets broken badly, I won't feel nearly as bad as if it was a more expensive car. I wondered about speed after being spoiled by the 993 during DEs, but the S2 pulls very well. This car was owned by a PCA Parade Autocross champion.

If you're looking for a 993, Greg Fishman's race car is for sale.

fast951

Putting "image" aside, a well prepped 951 will outhandle and outperform any variation of the later 911 cars. And of course a 951 is much much cheaper. You can get over 350rwhp out of a 951 for not much money. The 951 is the best bang for the $. A 951 prepped for track use is fun.
I own a 930, 928 street cars, 951 track cars and driven many 3.6 911s. No comparison in performance and handling...

Jack667

I bought a 944 NA ofr the track, relegating my 964 to Sunday driver status. My wife and I both do DE events, and I am worried that we have been spoiled by the speed of the 3.6. Also, HP at DE's seems to be going upevery year. I'm hoping that I can ease into Club Racing in the next couple of years, and that I'll be spending more time with folks who have similar power/weight as my car. My wife is not too interested in Club Racing, and I fear that she will be disappointed at the DE's. We'll see...
I dumped way too much cash into the 944, so I'm stuck with it for the next few years, atleast.

M758

Well you can, but It will take some work.

I'll be honest a 951 has plenty of power for DE. Need more add some mods and there you go.
They are not very good at Ax however since they never get into the power band.

as for NA's
the 3.0L S2 are almost as fast as stock turbos and good at Ax. Only problem is that you can't get much more power from them. Especially comprared to the 951.

2.5L NA's
These are fine autocross and track cars, but require some mods to make them fun. My spec car has very little hp, but is fun at the autocross and track. This car has stiff suspesion and no interior. The combination of weight reduction suspension make it fast and fun in the corners, but not very fast on the straights. My car is not street legal, but they can be left legal without much work. They will however not be much of a street car. If you want a track/street car then an S2 or 951 is better. Track/Ax only but driven to track can be a spec type prepped car.

Be ready to learn about momentum as it is a vastly different and challengeing driving experinece.

Personally after Autocrossing and Racing a stripped out car for the past 2 1/2 years I can't think of driving a car hard with a full interior.

RS racer

I was in the exact same position with my 996 before finally purchasing a C class RS America.

Prior to owning, I rented a few 944s for my first club races. The relatively low toque out of the corners really made me focus on keeping the momentum up. I actually think it would have made me a better driver had I had the patience to work with it longer.

One's not better or worse just different. The bigger difference was the great balance of the 944 compared to the 996.

Have fun either way.

DFASTEST951

I don't know...more than a few 996tt owners said they would be happy with my car at the track and on the street. I bought the car as it was a great bang for the buck. That bang turned out to be an explosion though. lol...

JackOlsen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Putting "image" aside, a well prepped 951 will outhandle and outperform any variation of the later 911 cars.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">951 owners always say this, and yet I've never come across one that's faster than my normally-aspirated 911 on the track. It's like they've all got this mythical 'big brother' who's going to give everyone else a pounding when he gets home. He just never seems to make it home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

There. Okay. My baiting of 944 owners aside, I think you could be very happy with a lower horsepower Porsche as a track car. The more I track my car, the more I see that horsepower just isn't all that big a factor in getting around a track quickly. (Or at least it's not the factor that's ever going to get you any respect as a driver.)

I would guess that you'd be more likely to miss the 996's very capable suspension, although most track-prepped cars will make it feel annoyingly soft. A decent track car, cut down to pretty low weight, with a reasonably well-prepared suspension, is going to be a lot more fun to drive than some modern marvel with gobs of power and computer-driven traction tricks. Why? Because you're going to feel much more connected to the track in a lighter, simpler and nimbler car. And you'll also feel much less risk-averse, since the cost of going into the wall is going to be much more manageable with a $10,000 car than it would be with an $90,000 one.

My daily-driver has more horsepower and a more modern suspension than my weekend-and-track-days 911. But I would never want to take the Jaguar out on a track. The thing's a lumbering elephant compared to my Porsche.

Another way to make the point is to look at guys who race shifter karts. Those things have very little horsepower, but they're anything but a boring ride. Lots of guys ride the karts once, and then decide that they're not as courageous as they thought they were.

More important than 944 versus 911, ultimately, might be picking a classification with your local POC, PCA, NASA or SCCA, and deciding on which of their series you'd have the most fun playing in. Sooner or later, track days get repetitive, and you want to have a clearer context for driving around in all those circles. (This hasn't hit me, yet, but I've been told it happens.) Spec Miatas are an example of a really fun racing experience which you can have for an only-slightly-insane amount of money. Racing a 996 against other 996's would involve the REALLY insane dollar figures.

ngoldrich

In the end it really depends on you.

A little story...

I just went through something similar and even more of a difference.

(1) Raced a 935 for 7 years
(2) Raced a Spice GTP 2 years
(3) Raced A Lola CanAm (1850 pounds 800 HP) 4 years
(4) Get 4 hours seat time every week in a shifter kart.
(5) Raced an Oreca Viper GTSR in IMSA & Grand-Am
(6) Raced a WSC in Grand-Am
(7) Raced an IMSA Aurora GTS/Trans-Am car
(8) Last year ran my 996 TT at some DE.
(9) Now running an E-stock 944 Turbo in PCA.

An incredible change on several fronts -
[a] I previously felt I had to go realllly fast to have fun on the track.
[b] I previously felt I had to be on the front row (well not in IMSA/Grand-Am - club racing, HSR/SVRA)

Results :
Now - and I note that I am still trying to convince myself of the following - so I keep enjoying it :

* I run with a group of very competative and good drivers, so the competition is still there. So there continues to be room for improvement (on my part)

* It is the improvement and result that makes it fun, not the empirical speed/acceleration.
1850 lbs/800 HP vs. 3000 lbs 247 HP

* Street cars setup for racing are not prototypes racecars, you drive them differently (track lines are the same, but the dynamics in the car are different). But they can still be very fun, fast, and challenging...

* The 2 biggest changes were - no more 550-700 ft-lbs torque to overcome mistakes, throttle lifts, etc... In this car, the throttle is down so much more or you lose momentum. All the prototypes I raced had about 1/4 inch suspension travel. This car really moves around a lot. But once you get used to it, it really is pretty quick.

Hope this helps. I am still justifying this to myself. But I am having more fun each time I go to the track.

Norm

ngoldrich

And specifically on the 911/951 comparison side.

They both can be very fast compared to each other. I have now raced and driven both for many years. I think in the end it depends how well each is setup, how good the driver is and how well the driving style and car interact.

Just my 2 cents...

Norm

Alpine951

I am into my thrird year of DE and year four of ownership of my 86 951. It has been my only Porsche. What a blast. I currently only get to about five days of DE per year. The goal is to increase every year!! I just did my first event last weekend able to drive without an instructor. I have heard instructors say the new cars make up for a lack of skill with new drivers.

mitch236

I can say that after driving a few events in a 996TT and now in a 951, the 951 reqires much more skill to get around fast. The TT could power out of my slow turns and keep me respectable and so I didn't work on momentum or proper entry speed. Now I have to. Also the PSM/ABS kept me in check, now I have to be more aware of minute changes in the car's attitiude. All in all, a much more rewarding and fun experience in the 951.

Christian Cook

Wow, that's a lot of heated discussion.

I have recently purchased a '88, 924S race car prepped to ITS standards. I initially began my race car search with 911, with my first target being a '86 930 turbo. The primary decision to go with the 944 platform related with driving education, ability and progression. All instructors with whom I spoke (ranging from PCA to Panoz to ALMS drivers) recomended a neutral balanced, low hp momentum car. The reason for this is that the lack of hp will force you to become smooth early in your driving ability progression, avoiding mistakes covered by high hp. My logic is I want to learn how to drive, then I'll REALLY appreciate more car, such as a 964 RS America or something else. Additionaly, I've joined a local Karting championship, so I can practice my vision once per week. My 924S is strictly a trackcar, with a suspension too stiff to be streetable, so that's not an option, nor ever a goal. However, on the track, it's amazing. There should be enough track 944s around to give one a spin. One item to keep in mind with a pure track car is the costs associated with track infrastructure (truck, trailer, ramps, gas cans, tires, etc.). This may be a factor when comparing a higher hp, heavier and streetable car to a light, low hp track car such as a 944.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Christian