James Achard

OK, I need help with this, I have started Club Racing this year in F stock. In order to retain in class, I had to remove the Alcon brakes I had on the car for the past few years. I did about 30 track days with these brakes so I learned how the car handled with these brakes( I know, I should have changed to the stock brakes earlier). Anyway, back to the present, I have just done my 5th race and I just can't come to grips with the stock brakes. I have done everything mechanically I can to keep them up to par but they just don't inspire confidence or reliability( I'm down 11 sec. off my laptimes at Watkins Glen, 3 sec. down at Limerock). I have gone through two sets of rotors(1 front, 1 rear). and 3 sets of pads in 5 races. The rotors have gone in during the race( massive warpage).
So, I have come up with two scenarios which I would like to put forth and see what everyone thinks.

1. Keep the stock brakes for a while and see if I get used to them. Pro; Don't have to change brakes back and I get to stay in F. Con's; Burn through pads and rotors at an alarming rate.

2. Switch to Turbo brakes and have the handling back to how I remember it. Pro's; After initial invesment, cheaper to maintain. Driver knows car better with these brakes. Con's; Put's me in E where my car will need more work to be really competetive.

Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Cheers, James

Mike in Chi

Hi James

Have you tried the treated, slotted rotors and Pagid Orange Pads? As I understand it, they will keep you in your stock class.

My F car stops like crazy with them, but that's only at a DE. First race weekend in the car is this week.

James Achard

Mike, I forgot to mention; Pagid orange in front, black in rear on slotted frozen rotors up front, soon to be in back too.

Mike in Chi

James

Oh.

Well, I've always found the advantage of being slow is you don't go through pads and rotors so quickly.

chris walrod

I am interested in slotted rotors myself. After cracking my OE set after just one DE, slotted rotors may be a better bet. Who makes slotted rotors for our cars?

Thanks

Bill Gregory

Slotting is done to the stock rotor. You can buy slotted OEM rotors from Paragon Products, as one source. If you go with frozen, Diversified Cryogenics (www.frozenrotors.com) is the source. I just ordered a slotted set from them. The slotted, frozen rotors I used last year worked great through around 14 DE's.

James, what's the cooling setup on your brakes? Air from your front valance or the under a-arm scoops? On the pre-964's you've got several good options to aid brake cooling. There's a picture in Bruce Anderson's book showing an easy rear scoop which attached to the shock that would help with rear cooling (since nobody sells anything for rear cooling, you could probably even make them and sell a fair number!)

Greg Fishman

Go to different pads. The P.O. are too soft for a race application, IMO. I went to Hawk Blues and all was good, try them, it is much cheaper than switching calipers and rotors. Also, what are you doing for brake cooling, do you have proper ducting?

Carrera51

James:
I was in the same boat in 2000 that you are in now. I put big reds (my original calipers needed to be rebuilt/replaced, plus I needed rotors)in on my 84 Carrera before I decided to club race. Thought about putting the stock brakes back on the car. Decided not to and ran my first race in E Prepared. Thought about putting the stock brakes again. A long time club racer posed this question to me,"will you run in the top three in F if you put the stock brakes back on?" "No," I said. His answer, "If it's not going to make a huge difference, then leave your car the way it is."

Bottom line is, I don't have brake issues. Plus I am not constantly screwing around replacing rotors and pads every other race. (My current rotors have 10 race weekends on them, seriously). It's nice having the same braking ability on the last lap as I do on the first lap.

There is nothing worse than not having confidence in your equipment, and your 11 second per lap drop in times at WG, is evidence that is the case.

Being someone who has done this, I say put the big brakes back on and take the bump to E prepared.

James Achard

Men, Thanks for all the great input, as usual. I have plenty of brake ducting up front but none in the rear. Bill, you make an excellent point in regard to the rear cooling, or lack thereof.

Greg, I will get a set of the Hawk's and see how it goes.

Carrera51, This is what I suspected all along. As I was driving in my rationalization for doing this was pretty much what you said. If I can have confidence in the equipment then then I will feel alote better about the car and will be able to go quicker. I am not near the top of the F troop by any stretch of the imagination, plus I have a few friends in E who I would enjoy racing against.

Cheers, James

JC in NY

James,
I have a different perspective. I used to drive a 3.2 Carrera on track and I had similar brake problems until a few veteran F racers simply told me I was braking too much and overheating the brakes. Of course initially I found this to be absurd and oversimplified, but after taking the advice and building up to a more "efficient" braking technique I found the Carrera brakes to be adequate. Yes, you will go through pads and rotors but for the 3.2 Carrera they are relatively cheap compared to the bigger Brembo applications. The advice I got was from the F troop guys of course, and their performance record speaks for itself.

My vote is stick with the stock Carrera in F and work on braking technique within the limits of these brakes.

MikeQuig

Actually I think you should stay in F. There are many more cars to compete against in F. It is the pre-eminent "drivers" class. I look at it this way, all of our cars are of the "momentum" variety. We are constantly trying to conserve it. I'm in my second year in F and I'm getting quicker while braking less - even using the turn-in to scrub the last bit of speed rather than laying on the binders. Give it another year of working with the Carrera brakes, it will work out. Come by and visit if you get to Mid-America, Pueblo, or Hallett.

-Mike Quigley

911 Euro SC

Jack667

Have you tried SS lines and Super Blue (or other) fluid? It may also help a bit with feel and consistency, which may result in more confidence...

pig4bill

Why would slotted rotors reduce cracking? The only claim I've heard about them is a "cleaning" effect to sweep pad material off. I would think slotting would encourage cracking, not reduce it.

MJR911

FWIW, Dave White in his 1850lbs 2.0 litre vintage car brakes only TWO places at the Glen... the front straight for a BRIEF second, and the bus stop (barely). Talk about a momentum car.

James, anothe option for you is to stay in F and run as a "turbo look" it'll take 200 lbs. ballast but you can run flares (bigger rubber) and the turbo brakes.

I just got back from a DE at the glen in our F car. I was running a good pace, around 2.18 - 2.20 laps (lotsa traffic!) and have just dealt with the brakes as "the best i'll ever get, so don't worry about it"

Setup is hawks (switched from pagid last year, i love them!) with slotted rotors and brake bleeds after almost every event to keep that pedal firm

Mitch

MJR911

Of course, making your car "prepared" means you can now run a chip, R&P, flares, etc... but I don't think you'll be competitive in the land of turbo S and C2s