Will

I enjoyed reading James' thread ("Looking to move to Club Racing"), especially since I'm at a similar juncture. Perhaps you guys can give me some advice.

The Driver (Me!): Three days at Bondurant last year served as my introduction to the track. This summer, I drove my '87 Carrera at Gingerman, Grattan, and Waterford Hills as many times as I possibly could at various DE events, probably 12-15 days total. I had an amazingly great time. I'm going to Skip Barber's 3-day racing school at Laguna Seca in February.

The Car: Bone stock '87 Carrera, except it has aftermarket C2 Turbo wheels with SO2's and has been lowered a bit. Track brake pads, too.

The Plan: Next season, I want to stick with DE and open track days, and focus on improving my driving skills. I already feel like I'm testing the limits of the Carrera's stock suspension. Hence, I'm thinking of doing some modifications to it over the winter (I live in Michigan). BUT.... I don't want to get too carried away with modifications to this beautiful and original car until I'm pretty sure of where I want this to end up. I am very interested in trying Club Racing, which I'll probably try in 2003. Those of you that read James' thread will see the parallels. He purchased a track-ready '87 Carrera, though, and is committed to that direction. In my case, I see a couple of different paths:

(1) Modify my Carrera within the bounds of PCA F-Stock rules over the winter and have lots of fun with it on the track next season, then move to Club Racing. Advantages: I already own this car and know it like the back of my hand, and it will be fun to modify it. Disadvantages: Expensive, involves some surgery (e.g. the adjustable antiroll bars), will be hard on this excellent example of an '87 Carrera, and ultimately, will probably not be competitive with C2's, which also lurk in F-Stock.

(2) Sell the Carrera and buy a C2, then modify it for F-Stock. Advantages: Will ultimately be faster than the Carrera. Disadvantages: More money, the difficulty of buying a car I don't know vs. one I do.

(3) Buy a Carrera or C2 that someone else has already modified and sorted out. Advantages: Less costly. Disadvantages: It could be hard to find a good car. Inheriting someone else's problems is not what I want to do. It also takes some of the fun out of modifying a car myself. I do have a line on a very nice '87 Carrera that is already modified. (Side note: What would you guys pay for an '87 with: about 55k miles, DAS roll bar, turbo tie rods, TRG adjustable sway bars, adjustable front camber plates, strut brace, shocks, torsion bars, turbo tail, Kinesis wheels + Fuchs, 2 Sparco Evos, harnesses/harness pads, Cool brake ducting, cat bypass pipe, K&N, chip, Boxster front brakes (not PCA legal), 2000 miles on rebuilt engine and clutch?)

I doubt I'll be able to settle all of this before the season starts in April. Therefore, I'm thinking of doing modest (and reversible) modifications to my Carrera and just enjoying track days for another season. What would you suggest for minimal modifications to make the car a bit more capable for next year without proceeding too far down the "track car" path? I think that's a hard question to answer. For example, it's not as simple as just throwing new torsion bars and shocks on the car; I've heard you really need to do antiroll bars at the same time. Some even say do the antiroll bars first! Or, can I just throw some sticky rubber on the stock car and go for it? Any experience out there on this?

Thanks!

Will

Carrera51

Will:
I was in the same boat 1.5 years ago. I wanted a 911 after doing 1.5 years of DE in a 944 N/A. I bought a really clean, straight 84 in the Fall of 1999. I ended up setting it up for club racing. I could have saved $$$ by buying a car that was already set up for the track. By having the mechanic I trust do the work, I at least know that it was all done correctly, even though my wallet is alot lighter. I would do the torsion bars first. I have been told that anti sway bars should be done second and are for fine tuning purposes. I know one guy who races who put in bigger t-bars, and left the stock anti sway bars in. He wins frequently in G (82 SC) so it looks like it works for him. The boxster brakes aren't illegal, they would just bump you up to E class. If you decide to modify your current car you will find that installing the roll cage will be the biggest pain in the neck. I helped my mechanic do mine and it was a headache.

There are plenty of fast Carreras in F. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the 964s get bumped to E in the next year or two. The rules committee rejected the proposal for 2002 but who knows what they will decide in the future.

Greg Fishman

Will,
If you end up needing a full cage and want to have it welded in I can get you a number for a guy in Indianapolis that did mine on my 993. He does good work and is very reasonable.

Why not look at a 95 993 to convert or buy already track prepped? You should be able to get a 993 in the low $30K's. The owner of TPC (Turbo Performance Center) had a track prepped 993 for sale for $45K. Don't be surprised if you end up with that much in your '87 if you take it up to Club Race specs.
Good Luck,
Greg

Howard

Will,
I've seen several guys in the club add torsion bars, anti-roll bars, roll cage, and other modifications to try and make the car faster, but one of the most important components was forgotten......a well fitted race seat ! Go with a high quality race seat,roll bar, and 5 point harness and get lots of track time while you're deciding which direction to go.......and then....get a 993 track car !

good luck !

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Ouch! Low 30s. TPC car sold on the first day. I called on it Greg.

As for your prediciment, modifying your street car will only hurt in the long run since you will be putting money into it that you wont get out. When I step up and shut up and buy a race car, I am 99% sure I am going to buy someone else's already sorted out car rather than transforming mine - it is the most economical way to do it.

If you want to have fun this year, put in a roll bar and seats and harnesses and go get the nut behind the wheel up to speed before upgrading the car or thinking about racing. You will have fun, learn a lot and be safe.

No matter what you decide, you will have fun.

As a side note, I still say a 964 european cup car has the most bang for the buck.

E. J.

UrbanSasquatch

Dunno if you saw my previous post on the other thread, but in the last year or so I had the same dilemma, and based on some research and hanging out in the pits at a couple PCA club races, it looks like the C2 is the machine to get in F-stock. Coil spring suspension is much easier to adjust for corner balancing, you are not limited by torsion bar size in the front end, brakes are bigger than even the late Carrera, engine has greater horsepower and torque, G50 gearbox (same as in your '87 but stronger than the 915, if a bit heavier). I have even heard that guys take a C4 body, which has additional bracing for greater stiffness, and fit the C2 drivetrain, same weight in PCA. In terms of expense, probably more expensive than modifying the '87 (the trick suspension is about $4k) but to modify the '87 RIGHT will probably require a minimum investment of $15k over the basic car. So, all-up ready to race you are looking at a cost of about $35-40k for a car for your first season.

Check out the list of mods to Hank Westerduin's car- custom 8 point chromoly cage, 27 gallon fuel cell, full Dawe suspension with custom valved Bilsteins, Charlie bars, turbo tierods, limited slip, freshly rebuild transmission, full B&B exhaust, 17" Fikse LM10's, RSR 3.8 wing, Iroc dam with B&B oilcooler, MOMO wheel, Konig seats -- and he's selling it for $36k in the PCA "Mart". There are others out there that came on the market at the end of the season, and they may still be around. My advice: it's always better to buy somebody else's project rather than go up the learning curve yourself-- particularly if you are having a mechanic perform the work. If you planned to do it yourself it could be a valuable learning experience which might justify the time and expense, though.

I faced the same situation myself: I have a near-concours '88 Carrera that I was considering modifying for F-Stock. By the time I added up just the cost of the parts to be competitive, it appeared that buying an existing race car would be not only cheaper, but aesthetically easier: It's hard to take a perfect car and do a bunch of modifications that are pretty much irreversible, and then take it to the hostile environment of the racetrack (stones, immovable objects) and not hurt your Karma. Plus, my own view is that if I can't afford to crash it, I can't afford to race it-- particularly because this will be my first season and I know there will be many "Maalox Moments" as I work on the most important part of the car, the nut behind the wheel. So, I decided on a '71 "E" that I will race in H-Stock, where the temptation to spend big $$$ is just not there. In the early cars you are limited by fender width to 225's all around, whereas the "G" SC's and "F" Carreras and 964s will run a $4000 set of Fikses with 245-17 up front and 275-17 in the rear, providing huge stick with an albeit huge price tag.

So my advice would be, try to buy an existing race car first, then go the 964 route, then the 911-- and those adjustable camber plates will have to go, or they'll bump you into prepared. The problem with bumping into prepared is that to stay competitive, once you make ONE modification, you have to make them all, because the guys in the higher class have done them also. Good luck and I'll see you at the track, I'll be the one with the rookie "X."

GT-3S #40

Give Jeff Stone with Kelly-Moss MotorSports a call. I talked with him some weeks ago. He knows the used race car market as well as anyone and he said prices are at an all time low. I can assure you from personal experience, you and buy much cheaper than you can build and it's quicker.

Greg Fishman

Seemed like a good deal on the TPC car. The low 30's is for higher mileage, less than perfect cars (good candidates for race car conversion).

The 964 Euro Cup car is an excellent choice but I have seen some 993 cup cars in the low 70's as an asking price. By the time you are ready for a race car (assuming a year or so) you could probably get a 993 for 60K or so (my guess).

I figure I have so much in my race car I will just upgrade it as I need (want) to. I was thinking that a GT-2 conversion with a twin turbo 550hp motor would be nice!
Greg

E. J. - 993 Alumni

That sounds great. Will it be done for next season?

Does my car qualify as a high mileage car?

A 993 Cup for 60's sounds fantastic - when and where?

E. J.