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Old 01-19-2007, 10:19 PM
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SundayDriver
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Default Spring preload

I need to learn about this topic and can't find anything of consequence in my books or on-line.

Does anyone understand just what this does, how if effects handling and how to tune with it? Or do you have a book, article, etc that describes this feature?

Thanks in Advance
Old 01-19-2007, 11:45 PM
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Larry Herman
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I don't know anything about this from an automotive application, but with mountain bikes and motorcycles, the preload is usually the amount of compression that the spring has against a fully extended shock. If the loaded spring is greater than the preload, then you are merely adjusting height. If it is less, and that's the way it usually is with bikes, then it will affect how much load (weight) has to be put on the suspension before it will compress and absorb the input. Usually the heavier the rider, the more pre-load you want.
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Old 01-20-2007, 11:34 AM
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Thanks Larry. I understand what it is and how to set it, but have no real concept of how you tune with it. The pro car I am doing data engineering for uses preload to tune handling. This is new to me so I am trying to learn and have found very little info.

Some things are clear and easy:
Preload implies that the car must be droop limited (otherwise attempts at preload will simply change the ride height).
Preload will help maintain the ride height as forces up to the preload amount result in zero travel.

From a handling perspective, it seems to me that the suspension acts as if it is infinitely stiff until you hit the preload level then it has compliance. (this ignores spring constant of tires so there really is some travel).

What is far from clear is how the handling of the car reacts and why you would change preload (other than you probably want zero in the rain).

Maybe Chris Walrod has some insight though I think his cars do not use preload.
Old 01-20-2007, 12:18 PM
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Probably not the best way to explain it, but preload works to delay weight transfer - helps give better turn in and transient handling situations. More preload will make it turn in quicker becuase their is not compliance.
Old 01-21-2007, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
Probably not the best way to explain it, but preload works to delay weight transfer - helps give better turn in and transient handling situations. More preload will make it turn in quicker becuase their is not compliance.
Better turn in makes sense but it seems to me that is due to faster weight transfer, not delayed. Weight transfer is a function of cornering g's and CG. Roll has almost no effect on weight transfer (except to the small extent that the CG might move).

I have been searching the DSR forum, where I posted the same question, and Apexspeed. So far the main thing I have learned is that it makes turn in crisper.
Old 01-21-2007, 01:17 PM
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Mark, please post what you find out. I have been pondering over it as well, and think that if you are running without droop (essentially like a go-kart) then you may want to set the springs with enough preload so that they don't compress on turn-in, but will handle a bump under full load. That would yield some compliancy over bumps, and may reduce the twitchiness associated with Karts. Of course, with no droop, you don't have that feature when it comes to dips.
Old 01-21-2007, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SundayDriver
I need to learn about this topic and can't find anything of consequence in my books or on-line.

Does anyone understand just what this does, how if effects handling and how to tune with it? Or do you have a book, article, etc that describes this feature?

Thanks in Advance
SD,

I am no physics guy but preload changes the force you need to apply on the spring to get the same travel of the suspension...Hookes law...F=k*D. Spring control ride height in a tintop coil over suspension so if you preload a spring you change the effective length which changes the force required to continue to compress it. To me that results in a lower stiffer car and maybe just one more think to try and figure out what the two changes are doing vs. using no preload and just changing springs to figure out what happens. You may have a felt quicker turn-in only because for the same speed generating the same force on the spring once preloaded will compress less than before so you instantly feel the feedback in your a$$-o-meter. I am not sure that is a good thing and may not yeild faster laptimes in and of itself. I think tuning with it would be a problem because you can't separate the effects of chassis lowering vs. force change on the spring at the same time. If you had a way or a suspension design which allows spring preload changes but not ride height changes then you could do something with that, although I not smart enough to figure out what.
Old 01-21-2007, 09:25 PM
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This thread might be a little too engineery, but i think its worth a read. The forum is FSAE specific, but the question posed is in reference to formula ford.

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...8910968321/p/1
Old 01-21-2007, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by adrial
This thread might be a little too engineery, but i think its worth a read. The forum is FSAE specific, but the question posed is in reference to formula ford.

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...8910968321/p/1
Thanks for this link.

I got a great explanation from Richard Pare on another forum and see he was also part of that thread. It is all right there if you read what he has to say. That guy really knows his stuff.
Old 01-22-2007, 04:00 AM
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this is from a honda forum but you might find these helpful:

i dont think you could possibly preload a spring too much. theres really no reason to preload it excessively. also, you dont even need any preload. omnipower will tell you that their coilovers require some preload. they also blindly copy other ppls designs and offer free replacements when they mess up. so what do they know?

one misconception about preload is that it changes the spring rate, or makes the spring stiffer. absolutely not. if the spring is linear, the spring rate SHOULD remain the same, no matter the amount it is initially compressed. (not all springs are equal, some of the crappy taiwanese springs have exhibited non-linear behavior when they clearly were not designed to)

the truth is, your cars weight determines the amount of static preload. by that i mean, when all 4 wheels are rested on the ground. on a 2400lb car, say weight is equally distributed at all 4 corners, 600lbs over one wheel. theres not much you can ever do to change this, youd have to physically move stuff (battery, add ballasts) to change the weight distribution, so lets call that constant.

say you used an adjustable spring kit like ground control and had set the spring perch to just a BIT of preload, just so that the lower collar is touching the spring and no more. and say its a 300lbs/inch spring rate on that spring. jack the car up in the air and slowly let it drop, the car will drop 2" from the point the wheel touches the ground. lets say the bottom of the car is 5" from the ground.

now raise that spring perch from the point of nearly zero preload to 1" higher. you put 300lbs of pressure on that spring already. the wheel is probably going to be a bit more than 1" higher now, relative to the chassis because the spring to ride (wheel) height ratio is more like 1:1.5, but lets assume 1:1 here. drop the car onto the ground, and measure. the weight of the car is STILL going to push down on the spring the extra inch, until it reaches 600lbs of weight. the spring is still going to compress 2" and the car is now going to be 6" from the ground. youve raise the car 1" with one other change...

what has changed is whats called droop or sag. the distance the wheel can extend has been limited. now instead of having to raise the car 2" off the ground until the wheel is fully in the air, its just 1". what i do know from motorcycle backgrounds, motorcycles are VERY sensitive to sag distances. but i never really hear it talked about it for cars, so im just gonna figure its not really important and chalk it up as the difference between riding on 2 wheels instead of 4. quite frankly, i dont think you can even put enough pressure on that collar to provide any more than 300lbs anyway. so its quite moot to wonder what happens if you preloaded it 2", which would be 600lbs. then things get really funky. you basically at that point have no droop even though the ride height has NOT CHANGED. but like i said, the point is moot because youll never get there.

now, lets go the OPPOSITE direction. from the point of almost zero preload, lower the collar 1". there is now NO preload and the spring can even move around once the side is jacked up. drop the car again and youll find the ride height has finally changed, and its now lowered 1" with 4" from the bottom of the car to the ground. lower the perch 2", the ride height lowers 2". spring rate has since remained the same as well.

so basically, PRELOAD IS POINTLESS. let me remind you, this goes for adjustable spring kits, sleeve type, like ground controls. the spring should be free and rattling in order to adjust ride height. its very normal. the down side to lowering the spring perch is directly reducing the amount of shock travel. say you lower it 2", youve lost 2" of shock travel, with only perhaps a total of 5" until you hit the bumpstop. you can do other things like extend the top shock mounting point (like GC extended top hats, or just custom shortening your shock which only really koni does for a good price)

on the subject of threaded body shocks with adjustable lower cups, yes, those types of coilovers can (should) independently change ride height to shock travel. id have to say thats a nice thing about the full threaded body coilover setup. but in the case of poorly designed full coilovers, like omnipowers kit for the CRX and EF, the lower cup doesnt even allow any adjustment before it bottoms out. so basically to lower it any decent amount, you have to rely on the spring perch, basically removing any preload and again directly taking away from shock travel. the one benefit of that setup is completely wasted. yeah yeah, tehy got a "fix" for that, "contact your omnipower supplier" or "its coming out next month". when arent they fixing their crap....


in summary, dont worry about preload. it really doesnt mean anything relevent or affect much. you couldnt possibly have TOO much preload, and its fine or even proper to have none.
Old 01-22-2007, 10:41 AM
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For reference, the post on the SportsRacer forum that Mark referred to above.

http://p081.ezboard.com/fdsrforumfrm...icID=241.topic

Mark is 100% right about Mr. Pare. Knows his stuff, and doesn't mind taking the time to share it.

The link that adrial posted, and the one I just posted are two excellent definitions of preload and when/how one can use it in suspension tuning.

-Matt
Old 01-22-2007, 11:06 AM
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Larry Herman
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Thanks for that link Matt. Mr. Pare makes perfect sense, and has the ability to explain it in an understandable format. It seems as though most of this is for much lighter open-wheel cars. I wonder how much is applicable to the heavier cars that we drive.
Old 01-22-2007, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbillybob
SD,

I am no physics guy but preload changes the force you need to apply on the spring to get the same travel of the suspension...Hookes law...F=k*D. Spring control ride height in a tintop coil over suspension so if you preload a spring you change the effective length which changes the force required to continue to compress it. To me that results in a lower stiffer car and maybe just one more think to try and figure out what the two changes are doing vs. using no preload and just changing springs to figure out what happens. You may have a felt quicker turn-in only because for the same speed generating the same force on the spring once preloaded will compress less than before so you instantly feel the feedback in your a$$-o-meter. I am not sure that is a good thing and may not yeild faster laptimes in and of itself. I think tuning with it would be a problem because you can't separate the effects of chassis lowering vs. force change on the spring at the same time. If you had a way or a suspension design which allows spring preload changes but not ride height changes then you could do something with that, although I not smart enough to figure out what.
There are a couple of things here that are probably steering you down the wrong path. First, the laws about springs refer to free length. Preload does not change the rate, what it does is require some level of force before the initial deflection starts. From there, the spring has the normal rate.

Secondly, preload only applies when the suspension is droop limited. This can be done with shock length (some f teams have many different length shocks and set ride height with these different shocks). If you try to undrestand preload in a typical unconstrained suspension, it will make no sense as all it does is change ride height.
Old 01-22-2007, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GhettoRacer
this is from a honda forum but you might find these helpful:

Thanks. However, the guy who wrote this does not understand what preload is. Preload works with droop limiting and not at all as he describes. All he is talking about is threaded shock bodies where you can adjust height. With a preload setup, you adjust the perch to get the preload you want, and ride height is set elsewhere (other adjustable suspension component or changing shock lengths).
Old 01-22-2007, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Thanks for that link Matt. Mr. Pare makes perfect sense, and has the ability to explain it in an understandable format. It seems as though most of this is for much lighter open-wheel cars. I wonder how much is applicable to the heavier cars that we drive.
What I would take away in regards to production cars is that preload could be used to cure nasty understeer at corner entry, BUT you must be able to limit droop which is neither an inherent feature or your suspension (nor mine) nor easy to add.


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