How to drive a Carrera 4S?
01-30-2003, 09:13 PM
#61
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Greg, great link! I've been anxious for some info on DEs. I printed it and will study up...
Curt, I agree wholeheartedly! I've always craved input on my driving and since my teens haven't really had any. After reading the link from Greg, I will look forward to the slowest level and being a great student.
I've really enjoyed a couple of videos that people have taken from their "cockpit" during a DE. It reminds me of years watching Formula 1 or the such and anxiously waiting for that cockpit camera.
Good book recommendations Z. Know of any good videos/DVDs?
Thanks everyone, Kent
Curt, I agree wholeheartedly! I've always craved input on my driving and since my teens haven't really had any. After reading the link from Greg, I will look forward to the slowest level and being a great student.
I've really enjoyed a couple of videos that people have taken from their "cockpit" during a DE. It reminds me of years watching Formula 1 or the such and anxiously waiting for that cockpit camera.
Good book recommendations Z. Know of any good videos/DVDs?
Thanks everyone, Kent
01-30-2003, 11:49 PM
#62
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>Z-man
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray?
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have some experience here. A few years back David Murray was my instructor for a multiple day course at the Road Atlanta School (At that time the school was run by the track.) Not surprisingly he was a stupendous instructor; however, the school was very costly. I've gotten more bang for the buck at PCA DE's than I have at the school. This is purely on a cost/benefit basis, not time/benefit. DE's give you an awful lot of seat time for very low costs, normally with very useful instruction. You'll get the rare poor instructor; however, the vast majority help a lot.
<strong>Z-man
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray?
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have some experience here. A few years back David Murray was my instructor for a multiple day course at the Road Atlanta School (At that time the school was run by the track.) Not surprisingly he was a stupendous instructor; however, the school was very costly. I've gotten more bang for the buck at PCA DE's than I have at the school. This is purely on a cost/benefit basis, not time/benefit. DE's give you an awful lot of seat time for very low costs, normally with very useful instruction. You'll get the rare poor instructor; however, the vast majority help a lot.
01-31-2003, 04:14 PM
#63
Race Director
Kent:
Regarding videos:
Skip Barder has a video version of "Going Faster." I believe it's a great source.
One of my favorite videos is: "Lime Rock Park: the Secret Valley of Racing." It is a PBS documentary on the historic track. It doesn't have an instruction, but it has some nice vintage racing footage as well as lots of history. It WILL get your blood pumping for track driving!
I also have some in-car video of a certain SLOW 944S2 at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen. If you want, I can make you a copy. But like I said, this particular car and driver are a bit slow on the track! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
-Z.
Regarding videos:
Skip Barder has a video version of "Going Faster." I believe it's a great source.
One of my favorite videos is: "Lime Rock Park: the Secret Valley of Racing." It is a PBS documentary on the historic track. It doesn't have an instruction, but it has some nice vintage racing footage as well as lots of history. It WILL get your blood pumping for track driving!
I also have some in-car video of a certain SLOW 944S2 at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen. If you want, I can make you a copy. But like I said, this particular car and driver are a bit slow on the track! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
-Z.
01-31-2003, 05:03 PM
#64
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Kent:
If you have track experience in a lesser car than the C4S, you are going to be truly amazed at the performance. If you haven't driven on a track before, join your local PCA chapter (www.pca.org) if you aren't a member already, and sign up for a driver's ed event.
I remember what a hot shot driver I thought I was before my first DE. After one lap on the track riding with my instructor that day, I realized how much I didn't know about driving. Even after 4 years of DE, 2 years of racing I still learn something new every time I turn some laps on the track. One thing about a 911 is that you will never get bored with it.
Greg:
When instructing at DE events, I actually enjoy getting a self professed "hot shoe" as a student. I instructed a person once who seemed to doubt my credibility (the age gap thing, me being younger, him older). This person didn't seem to really be listening to what I was telling him. I suggested he take a ride with me in my car. Amazing how numbers and Club Racing stickers on your car can change perceptions. I took him around Summit Point at about 5/10ths, showed him what I was talking about as far as braking technique, slower in, faster out, yada yada yada.
The transformation in attitude was amazing.
If you have track experience in a lesser car than the C4S, you are going to be truly amazed at the performance. If you haven't driven on a track before, join your local PCA chapter (www.pca.org) if you aren't a member already, and sign up for a driver's ed event.
I remember what a hot shot driver I thought I was before my first DE. After one lap on the track riding with my instructor that day, I realized how much I didn't know about driving. Even after 4 years of DE, 2 years of racing I still learn something new every time I turn some laps on the track. One thing about a 911 is that you will never get bored with it.
Greg:
When instructing at DE events, I actually enjoy getting a self professed "hot shoe" as a student. I instructed a person once who seemed to doubt my credibility (the age gap thing, me being younger, him older). This person didn't seem to really be listening to what I was telling him. I suggested he take a ride with me in my car. Amazing how numbers and Club Racing stickers on your car can change perceptions. I took him around Summit Point at about 5/10ths, showed him what I was talking about as far as braking technique, slower in, faster out, yada yada yada.
The transformation in attitude was amazing.
01-31-2003, 09:28 PM
#65
Kent
I am not so sure that just because someone is a great driver or tennis player that they are naturally the best instructors. It sounds like ego demanding the best.
If you can afford the best, go for it. If you have a good handle on trail braking, great, just chose your corners wisely, all cars handle the same on a flatbed.
I am not so sure that just because someone is a great driver or tennis player that they are naturally the best instructors. It sounds like ego demanding the best.
If you can afford the best, go for it. If you have a good handle on trail braking, great, just chose your corners wisely, all cars handle the same on a flatbed.
02-01-2003, 10:24 AM
#66
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> If you can afford the best, go for it. If you have a good handle on trail braking, great, just chose your corners wisely, all cars handle the same on a flatbed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> No offense Kent, that's just damn funny.
02-01-2003, 10:36 AM
#67
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I remember a veteran instructor talking with his intermediate student and the student emphasized that he needed to drop his times two seconds this weekend and asked for advice. The instructor's response was that first he needed to buy a trailer to take his car home after he wrecked it...
02-01-2003, 12:22 PM
#68
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greg
In qualifying, I'll have a lap where I'm working hard, on edge, and heading for the flatbed if I pushed any harder.
I'm convinced I've turned in a hot lap (for me), and relax.
Invariably that "relaxed" lap will be my fastest time.
In qualifying, I'll have a lap where I'm working hard, on edge, and heading for the flatbed if I pushed any harder.
I'm convinced I've turned in a hot lap (for me), and relax.
Invariably that "relaxed" lap will be my fastest time.
02-01-2003, 08:24 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
awd vs. rwd
well, either way you would want to be as smooth as possible. The quickest way through a turn is deffinately not to induce oversteer, BUT in that situation, you would have to use left foot braking instead of the RWD scandinavian flick method.
well, either way you would want to be as smooth as possible. The quickest way through a turn is deffinately not to induce oversteer, BUT in that situation, you would have to use left foot braking instead of the RWD scandinavian flick method.
02-01-2003, 09:53 PM
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I've been wondering if anyone has or not mentioned the aspect of not wanting to oversteer. Is this only a concept of more recent racing as a result of wider tires, etc..... if any of you recall or have ever heard of the Porsche Driving Technique as taught in the 50s and 60s and included in a copy of a 356 manual...is an excerpt by Richard von Frankenberg (the Porsche driving expert of that era)
He mentions the technique of forcing oversteer...
<quote> "intentionally and consciously one brings about the breaking away in the beginning of a curve, a few tenths of a second before the turn itself. This only has sense, of course, when the car is driven really fast, so fast indeed as to cause the car to break away regardless. What you really do is to force upon the car your intention in purposely making it break away, a command the car will follow obediently. After you have set up this situation, you don't have to recover the car as you would do normally by relatively strong counter-steering. The cars moves as a whole, the front end pointing towards the inside of the curve and it literally 'wipes' round the bend; this typical Porsche movement we call 'wischen' (wiping) and it is a state between normal rolling travel and skidding, and one makes the necessary correction by 'sawing' on the steering wheel with an easy hand." <end of quote>
He mentions the technique of forcing oversteer...
<quote> "intentionally and consciously one brings about the breaking away in the beginning of a curve, a few tenths of a second before the turn itself. This only has sense, of course, when the car is driven really fast, so fast indeed as to cause the car to break away regardless. What you really do is to force upon the car your intention in purposely making it break away, a command the car will follow obediently. After you have set up this situation, you don't have to recover the car as you would do normally by relatively strong counter-steering. The cars moves as a whole, the front end pointing towards the inside of the curve and it literally 'wipes' round the bend; this typical Porsche movement we call 'wischen' (wiping) and it is a state between normal rolling travel and skidding, and one makes the necessary correction by 'sawing' on the steering wheel with an easy hand." <end of quote>
02-02-2003, 12:21 AM
#71
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>........by 'sawing' on the steering wheel with an easy hand." <end of quote></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">50's technique? My 2 year old son has that technique mastered as he putters around in his Fred Flinstone car on the fanmily room floor.
<strong>........by 'sawing' on the steering wheel with an easy hand." <end of quote></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">50's technique? My 2 year old son has that technique mastered as he putters around in his Fred Flinstone car on the fanmily room floor.
02-02-2003, 12:35 AM
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in those days, as my oldest brother proved, people won on technique more than on pure horsepower. he'd beat jaguars, corvettes, porsches in his MGA. oops, i made a statement...i'm gonna get pelted for that.
ha ha
ha ha
02-02-2003, 01:04 AM
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Tires </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>I've been wondering if anyone has or not mentioned the aspect of not wanting to oversteer. Is this only a concept of more recent racing as a result of wider tires, etc..... if any of you recall or have ever heard of the Porsche Driving Technique as taught in the 50s and 60s and included in a copy of a 356 manual...is an excerpt by Richard von Frankenberg (the Porsche driving expert of that era)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The switch years ago from bias ply to radial tires have made this technique pretty much obsolete. Tires these days get their best performance with MUCH lower slip angles than bias ply tires from the 50's and 60's.
<strong>I've been wondering if anyone has or not mentioned the aspect of not wanting to oversteer. Is this only a concept of more recent racing as a result of wider tires, etc..... if any of you recall or have ever heard of the Porsche Driving Technique as taught in the 50s and 60s and included in a copy of a 356 manual...is an excerpt by Richard von Frankenberg (the Porsche driving expert of that era)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The switch years ago from bias ply to radial tires have made this technique pretty much obsolete. Tires these days get their best performance with MUCH lower slip angles than bias ply tires from the 50's and 60's.
02-02-2003, 11:28 AM
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M in C,
Gosh, I have no idea. He's 23 years old than me so I was a toddler. I just remember seeing trophies and knowing that it was on closed road circuits in the mountains in Arkansas, Missouri, etc.
Steve, what you said makes complete sense. My other brother bought his 5th 356 the other day and he's working on re-developing that technique of old.
Gosh, I have no idea. He's 23 years old than me so I was a toddler. I just remember seeing trophies and knowing that it was on closed road circuits in the mountains in Arkansas, Missouri, etc.
Steve, what you said makes complete sense. My other brother bought his 5th 356 the other day and he's working on re-developing that technique of old.
