How to drive a Carrera 4S?
01-29-2003, 04:15 PM
#46
Race Director
Mike: Interesting point about liability / crash scenario.
HOWEVER: is it really worth that much more $$? For example: not counting the cost of my car or hotel/food:
1 weekend at Lime Rock DE (approx. 2 hours seat time): $225.00
1 day of autocrossing (~8 runs): $30.00
Far cheaper than PDE.
So: here's something I'd suggest: once you get your C4, attend an autocross event or two, to give you an idea of how your new toy handles. Then proceed to a DE or two. If you really dig the DE and autocross, then you can always find an older Porsche and play with that on the track!
My example: I have an '89 944S2 that I paid $8k for 1.5 years ago. (Since then, I've spent nearly as much on it in terms of 'track' maintenance and safety gear!). Now if I 'crash and burn' and insurance won't cover it, I'm out around $12-15k. It's a loss, but it is far less painfun on my wallet than the guy I know who wrecked his 964 and had only collector's insurance! (IIRC, he was out around $60k!) You can pick up a decent 944 na for under $5k!, and an older 911 will run you around $10-15k.
Personally, I would feel comfortable with driving a 996 on the track if I had one, regardless of price. (No, I'm not independantly wealthy, I just feel Porsche BELONG on the track!) If the damage factor concerns you, you can always find an inexpensive track car, and save the C4 for the street.
Again, just my $0.42
-Zoltan.
HOWEVER: is it really worth that much more $$? For example: not counting the cost of my car or hotel/food:
1 weekend at Lime Rock DE (approx. 2 hours seat time): $225.00
1 day of autocrossing (~8 runs): $30.00
Far cheaper than PDE.
So: here's something I'd suggest: once you get your C4, attend an autocross event or two, to give you an idea of how your new toy handles. Then proceed to a DE or two. If you really dig the DE and autocross, then you can always find an older Porsche and play with that on the track!
My example: I have an '89 944S2 that I paid $8k for 1.5 years ago. (Since then, I've spent nearly as much on it in terms of 'track' maintenance and safety gear!). Now if I 'crash and burn' and insurance won't cover it, I'm out around $12-15k. It's a loss, but it is far less painfun on my wallet than the guy I know who wrecked his 964 and had only collector's insurance! (IIRC, he was out around $60k!) You can pick up a decent 944 na for under $5k!, and an older 911 will run you around $10-15k.
Personally, I would feel comfortable with driving a 996 on the track if I had one, regardless of price. (No, I'm not independantly wealthy, I just feel Porsche BELONG on the track!) If the damage factor concerns you, you can always find an inexpensive track car, and save the C4 for the street.
Again, just my $0.42
-Zoltan.
01-29-2003, 06:08 PM
#47
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I must say this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while. Two things struck me as I read through. One, there is a lot of expertise in here, all being given freely and appropriately. Two, that this is one heck of a mature bunch of guys to be able to recover and recover well from the initial misunderstandings. Reinforces my appreciation for being part of this elite board.
Just out of curiosity, though, how does the C4S behave relative to the C2, and any chnages to the driving technique coming from a C2 to a C4S while driving on the edge of the cars performance envelope? I heard the new 996 C4S is actually more neutral?? As a track novice (total of 9 DE's so far, now in the blue/#3 run group,wahoooo!), it will be a while before I can appreciate the difference. Just thought it would be cool to know.
Just out of curiosity, though, how does the C4S behave relative to the C2, and any chnages to the driving technique coming from a C2 to a C4S while driving on the edge of the cars performance envelope? I heard the new 996 C4S is actually more neutral?? As a track novice (total of 9 DE's so far, now in the blue/#3 run group,wahoooo!), it will be a while before I can appreciate the difference. Just thought it would be cool to know.
01-29-2003, 09:06 PM
#48
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Palting,
Take this for what it is worth. A buddy of mine and I have similarly prepped cars that we race in PCA Club events. His is AWD mine is rear wheel drive. I have ridden in his and vice versa. Big difference is how easily the 2wd car is to throttle steer compared to the AWD car. One big advantage the AWD car has is that you can get on the throttle a lot earlier. The advantage on a wet track is very obviously in favor of the AWD car.
These differences would not be present unless you were driving close to the limits. It would be tough to notice the difference in every day driving, IMO.
Take this for what it is worth. A buddy of mine and I have similarly prepped cars that we race in PCA Club events. His is AWD mine is rear wheel drive. I have ridden in his and vice versa. Big difference is how easily the 2wd car is to throttle steer compared to the AWD car. One big advantage the AWD car has is that you can get on the throttle a lot earlier. The advantage on a wet track is very obviously in favor of the AWD car.
These differences would not be present unless you were driving close to the limits. It would be tough to notice the difference in every day driving, IMO.
01-30-2003, 03:05 AM
#49
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Palting:
<strong>
Just out of curiosity, though, how does the C4S behave relative to the C2, and any chnages to the driving technique coming from a C2 to a C4S while driving on the edge of the cars performance envelope? I heard the new 996 C4S is actually more neutral?? As a track novice (total of 9 DE's so far, now in the blue/#3 run group,wahoooo!), it will be a while before I can appreciate the difference. Just thought it would be cool to know.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If we'are talking about 996 C2 vs. C4S, C4S has much more performance oriented suspension. 996 C2's have very soft suspension. Apparently Porsche make it so to appeal to lot of business and other less hardcore people. The softness will really only show when the driver pushes it hard on the track. It still has very good cornering grip, but just a minor delay in response.
I've made some comments about C4/C4S not long ago in this forum. Search the archive.
<strong>
Just out of curiosity, though, how does the C4S behave relative to the C2, and any chnages to the driving technique coming from a C2 to a C4S while driving on the edge of the cars performance envelope? I heard the new 996 C4S is actually more neutral?? As a track novice (total of 9 DE's so far, now in the blue/#3 run group,wahoooo!), it will be a while before I can appreciate the difference. Just thought it would be cool to know.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If we'are talking about 996 C2 vs. C4S, C4S has much more performance oriented suspension. 996 C2's have very soft suspension. Apparently Porsche make it so to appeal to lot of business and other less hardcore people. The softness will really only show when the driver pushes it hard on the track. It still has very good cornering grip, but just a minor delay in response.
I've made some comments about C4/C4S not long ago in this forum. Search the archive.
01-30-2003, 08:51 AM
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Z-man
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray?
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray?
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.
01-30-2003, 10:40 AM
#51
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>Z-man
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Good point Mike: there are some schools that really offer top-level drivers as instructors, that often do not happen on DE's. But not always: a friend of mine attended a DE with the CVR region last in at The Glen. IIRC, Murray was Mark's instructor!
My take on this: while you are still a beginner or intermediate driver in DE, the 'gods of driving' won't teach you much more than the PCA DE instructors. They may be able to teach you stuff quicker, but I doubt it would be on the order of ten or twenty-fold (their cost is on that order, compared to DE prices!) And as we all know: it's all about seat time.
When I progress up to the expert run groups, and am an instructor myself, I will THEN seek the instruction of the 'greats.' To have someone like Hurley Haywood help me to drive would be fantastic, but for now, I'm not really ready for him! (Why waste my $$ on him teaching me about late apexing, when someone else can properly show me how to take a turn?)
Just my $0.42
-Zoltan.
PS: Mr. Haywood attended a monthly NNJR PCA meeting last year: what a neat experience to meet him!
<strong>Z-man
What's the impact on the value equation of having an instructor named Haywood, Bundy or Murray
You're absolutely right though, if you want to spend the minimum dollars, DE, autcross and karting can't be beat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Good point Mike: there are some schools that really offer top-level drivers as instructors, that often do not happen on DE's. But not always: a friend of mine attended a DE with the CVR region last in at The Glen. IIRC, Murray was Mark's instructor!
My take on this: while you are still a beginner or intermediate driver in DE, the 'gods of driving' won't teach you much more than the PCA DE instructors. They may be able to teach you stuff quicker, but I doubt it would be on the order of ten or twenty-fold (their cost is on that order, compared to DE prices!) And as we all know: it's all about seat time.
When I progress up to the expert run groups, and am an instructor myself, I will THEN seek the instruction of the 'greats.' To have someone like Hurley Haywood help me to drive would be fantastic, but for now, I'm not really ready for him! (Why waste my $$ on him teaching me about late apexing, when someone else can properly show me how to take a turn?)
Just my $0.42
-Zoltan.
PS: Mr. Haywood attended a monthly NNJR PCA meeting last year: what a neat experience to meet him!
01-30-2003, 12:14 PM
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Z..
good point about being able to learn basics from people other than the greats, but my experiences so far in life have proven that learning from higher level instructors from the beginning has always proven very beneficial in my learning curve and in my understanding.
Too often people in a teaching capacity teach without imparting a higher level understanding. for the student. Their lack of being able to share the understanding, or show at the higher level could explain why they aren't one of the "gods."
Personally, I want my seat time to be as "right on" as possible and the confidence that a "great" instructor would give is in my opinion always worth the money or extra effort.
I appreciate you guys and your track time and experiences, but although someone like me may be novice on a track, it doesn't mean that our "feel" and "understanding" of cornering, etc isn't worthy of high level instruction.
For example, I learned to play tennis from a former Wimbledon champion. Within 2 years I played college tennis. I studied ballet at the Boston Ballet and within 4 years of my first class, I was offered a professional contract. (that's unheard of) I attribute much of my success to the level of instruction and understanding that my foundational periods received.
good point about being able to learn basics from people other than the greats, but my experiences so far in life have proven that learning from higher level instructors from the beginning has always proven very beneficial in my learning curve and in my understanding.
Too often people in a teaching capacity teach without imparting a higher level understanding. for the student. Their lack of being able to share the understanding, or show at the higher level could explain why they aren't one of the "gods."
Personally, I want my seat time to be as "right on" as possible and the confidence that a "great" instructor would give is in my opinion always worth the money or extra effort.
I appreciate you guys and your track time and experiences, but although someone like me may be novice on a track, it doesn't mean that our "feel" and "understanding" of cornering, etc isn't worthy of high level instruction.
For example, I learned to play tennis from a former Wimbledon champion. Within 2 years I played college tennis. I studied ballet at the Boston Ballet and within 4 years of my first class, I was offered a professional contract. (that's unheard of) I attribute much of my success to the level of instruction and understanding that my foundational periods received.
01-30-2003, 02:53 PM
#54
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M in C: you have a message. (And why $0.42? 'Cause it's the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything! see "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
Kent: I understand what you're saying, but there's a point where the extra cost isn't worth it.
Using your examples: do you need a Wimbledon champ to teach you how to run? Do you need a professional ballet instructor to teach you how to walk and balance? Not really. The same can be said for learning performance driving: you don't need Andretti, or Haywood, or Schumacher to teach you how to turn the ignition on! Or to learn the line of a racetrack, or to heal-and-toe, or any of the other basic elements of track driving!
I'm not saying that you shouldn't get professional instruction. However, pro-instruction to me makes more sense once you've gotten the basics of track driving under your belt. Learn to walk first.
-Z-man.
Kent: I understand what you're saying, but there's a point where the extra cost isn't worth it.
Using your examples: do you need a Wimbledon champ to teach you how to run? Do you need a professional ballet instructor to teach you how to walk and balance? Not really. The same can be said for learning performance driving: you don't need Andretti, or Haywood, or Schumacher to teach you how to turn the ignition on! Or to learn the line of a racetrack, or to heal-and-toe, or any of the other basic elements of track driving!
I'm not saying that you shouldn't get professional instruction. However, pro-instruction to me makes more sense once you've gotten the basics of track driving under your belt. Learn to walk first.
-Z-man.
01-30-2003, 03:02 PM
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Z-man, remember, this whole thing got off on the wrong foot cause assumptions were made that I don't know all of those things already. Let's say I took instruction at a DE by a decent instructor that didn't know how to use trail braking. now that instructor may try to hone my slow in, fast out method that i've used for 23 years because that's what he/she uses. where as, i want instruction as though the instructor desired that i become the next schumacher.
Ha ha, are we disagreeing for the sake of it. True, cost can get ridiculous at some point. And, i don't know personally whether the level of instruction is any better one place than another. I'll have to rely on you guys/gals for that for now.
Thanks for your input
Ha ha, are we disagreeing for the sake of it. True, cost can get ridiculous at some point. And, i don't know personally whether the level of instruction is any better one place than another. I'll have to rely on you guys/gals for that for now.
Thanks for your input
01-30-2003, 03:46 PM
#56
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Z-man, remember, this whole thing got off on the wrong foot cause assumptions were made that I don't know all of those things already. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No offense meant Kent, but: while you may understand many of the concepts we are discussing, if you haven't been on the track EVER, and you've never applied these concepts on the track. (Is that assumption correct?) Believe me: driving on the track and driving on the street are totally different! You may be an excellent driver on the street, and that may enable you to pick up track driving quicker, but don't expect to be the best there is right out of the box!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>Let's say I took instruction at a DE by a decent instructor that didn't know how to use trail braking.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't think that would happen! Don't underestimate the knowledge of DE instructors: Most have extensive experience in club racing, track driving...etc. They must attend training classes and are evaluated by the chief stewards before they can become instructors. They will quickly understand your driving level, and teach you according to your level! All of the instructors that I have had have ALL taught me many things that were applicable at my level!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>...now that instructor may try to hone my slow in, fast out method that i've used for 23 years because that's what he/she uses. where as, i want instruction as though the instructor desired that i become the next schumacher. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Again, slow in/fast out is different on public roads vs. the track. NO: I'm not saying you don't know how to drive, just that you are unfamiliar with track driving. And as stated above, the DE instructors are capable enough of determining your ability, and they will teach you things that you are ready for, and not go over the basics you already have down.
Think of it like this: if you sat in a car whose steering wheel and pedals were opposite of the normal setup (turn the steering wheel left, and the car goes right; and switch the brake and throttle pedals), it will take a person some time and practise to get used to this new setup. Same applies to driving on the track vs. street driving.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
Ha ha, are we disagreeing for the sake of it. True, cost can get ridiculous at some point. And, i don't know personally whether the level of instruction is any better one place than another. I'll have to rely on you guys/gals for that for now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm not disagreeing just for the sake of it, but maybe I'm stressing my point too much. I guess I'm just tryin' to save you some $$!
Hey, you may find that track driving isn't for you, and then instead of finding this out after $1000.00, you can find this out after $200.00! (Just don't wreck your beautiful C4S! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )
Peace,
-Z.
<strong>Z-man, remember, this whole thing got off on the wrong foot cause assumptions were made that I don't know all of those things already. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No offense meant Kent, but: while you may understand many of the concepts we are discussing, if you haven't been on the track EVER, and you've never applied these concepts on the track. (Is that assumption correct?) Believe me: driving on the track and driving on the street are totally different! You may be an excellent driver on the street, and that may enable you to pick up track driving quicker, but don't expect to be the best there is right out of the box!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>Let's say I took instruction at a DE by a decent instructor that didn't know how to use trail braking.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't think that would happen! Don't underestimate the knowledge of DE instructors: Most have extensive experience in club racing, track driving...etc. They must attend training classes and are evaluated by the chief stewards before they can become instructors. They will quickly understand your driving level, and teach you according to your level! All of the instructors that I have had have ALL taught me many things that were applicable at my level!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>...now that instructor may try to hone my slow in, fast out method that i've used for 23 years because that's what he/she uses. where as, i want instruction as though the instructor desired that i become the next schumacher. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Again, slow in/fast out is different on public roads vs. the track. NO: I'm not saying you don't know how to drive, just that you are unfamiliar with track driving. And as stated above, the DE instructors are capable enough of determining your ability, and they will teach you things that you are ready for, and not go over the basics you already have down.
Think of it like this: if you sat in a car whose steering wheel and pedals were opposite of the normal setup (turn the steering wheel left, and the car goes right; and switch the brake and throttle pedals), it will take a person some time and practise to get used to this new setup. Same applies to driving on the track vs. street driving.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
Ha ha, are we disagreeing for the sake of it. True, cost can get ridiculous at some point. And, i don't know personally whether the level of instruction is any better one place than another. I'll have to rely on you guys/gals for that for now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm not disagreeing just for the sake of it, but maybe I'm stressing my point too much. I guess I'm just tryin' to save you some $$!
Hey, you may find that track driving isn't for you, and then instead of finding this out after $1000.00, you can find this out after $200.00! (Just don't wreck your beautiful C4S! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )Peace,
-Z.
01-30-2003, 04:04 PM
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Have to admit, I'll rather smash a PDE car than mine!
Z- points well taken. Part of the problem is I don't know much about the entire DE setup. That's been obvious all along. And no, I have no expectations of being good, much less great on the track right out of the box.
Getting back to some earlier stuff...Do you or anyone else have comments on the book that was listed earlier, Porsche High Performance Driving, and how recent the book is and how much if any addresses AWD Porsche driving.
Thanks, Kent
Z- points well taken. Part of the problem is I don't know much about the entire DE setup. That's been obvious all along. And no, I have no expectations of being good, much less great on the track right out of the box.
Getting back to some earlier stuff...Do you or anyone else have comments on the book that was listed earlier, Porsche High Performance Driving, and how recent the book is and how much if any addresses AWD Porsche driving.
Thanks, Kent
01-30-2003, 04:39 PM
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Kent,
This is a good explanation of what is a DE event.
<a href="http://www.tracquest.com/DriverEd/driver_ed.asp" target="_blank">http://www.tracquest.com/DriverEd/driver_ed.asp</a>
This is a good explanation of what is a DE event.
<a href="http://www.tracquest.com/DriverEd/driver_ed.asp" target="_blank">http://www.tracquest.com/DriverEd/driver_ed.asp</a>
01-30-2003, 05:41 PM
#59
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Kent:
Regarding Vic Elford's Porsche High Performance Driving: yes, it does cover all the different vehicle layouts, including AWD.
There are some other books that are probably more technical than Elford's writings: he spends a lot of time discussing his racing achievements.
Some more technical books I recommend:
Speed Secrets by Russ Bently
The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue
Going Faster by Skip Barber school
Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts
The Bob Bondurant Performance Driving book by Bondurant
-Z.
Regarding Vic Elford's Porsche High Performance Driving: yes, it does cover all the different vehicle layouts, including AWD.
There are some other books that are probably more technical than Elford's writings: he spends a lot of time discussing his racing achievements.
Some more technical books I recommend:
Speed Secrets by Russ Bently
The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donohue
Going Faster by Skip Barber school
Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts
The Bob Bondurant Performance Driving book by Bondurant
-Z.
01-30-2003, 06:12 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Let's say I took instruction at a DE by a decent instructor that didn't know how to use trail braking.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As has been pointed out, it's more likely that you'll get a very good driver for an instructor. How good an instructor they may be will vary. I have not had a bad instructor in my experience with three different clubs (two different makes). Some of the instructors are tremendously enthusiastic (for being a hapless passenger), and most of them will very quickly adapt their instruction to the student's skill level (whether the student likes it or not).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Kent again:
<strong>now that instructor may try to hone my slow in, fast out method that i've used for 23 years because that's what he/she uses. where as, i want instruction as though the instructor desired that i become the next schumacher.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That would present an opportunity for you to have a pleasant conversation with your instructor about what you wish to learn and what s/he thinks you need to learn according to your performance on the track.
You may need to wait until a break between sessions--or even the start of your next session, as instructors are often in demand--to engage your instructor in that conversation. S/He may agree or not. It may take a day or ten to advance to the run group one feels is appropriate for one's skills. But, whatever your thoughts on this might be, do the instructor a favor and comply with their instruction while they're in the car with you. They'll see you're learning, and they have a tough enough job already, without wondering what the heck a student is going to do next.
The more I learn about performance driving, the more I realize how little I know. And that there's little room for ego behind the wheel at a DE.
Curt
'86.5 928 S
'91 928 GT
<strong>Let's say I took instruction at a DE by a decent instructor that didn't know how to use trail braking.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As has been pointed out, it's more likely that you'll get a very good driver for an instructor. How good an instructor they may be will vary. I have not had a bad instructor in my experience with three different clubs (two different makes). Some of the instructors are tremendously enthusiastic (for being a hapless passenger), and most of them will very quickly adapt their instruction to the student's skill level (whether the student likes it or not).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Kent again:
<strong>now that instructor may try to hone my slow in, fast out method that i've used for 23 years because that's what he/she uses. where as, i want instruction as though the instructor desired that i become the next schumacher.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That would present an opportunity for you to have a pleasant conversation with your instructor about what you wish to learn and what s/he thinks you need to learn according to your performance on the track.
You may need to wait until a break between sessions--or even the start of your next session, as instructors are often in demand--to engage your instructor in that conversation. S/He may agree or not. It may take a day or ten to advance to the run group one feels is appropriate for one's skills. But, whatever your thoughts on this might be, do the instructor a favor and comply with their instruction while they're in the car with you. They'll see you're learning, and they have a tough enough job already, without wondering what the heck a student is going to do next.
The more I learn about performance driving, the more I realize how little I know. And that there's little room for ego behind the wheel at a DE.
Curt
'86.5 928 S
'91 928 GT