Jaws911

OK, before any one flames me, let me say that, FWIW, I am happy to concede that I have less driving/track skills/experience than anyone else who has posted on this thread...but it is an open forum, right?

So, I would just like to say to Mr. Woods that if you have never driven on a closed track w/ (or w/o) instruction (& I don't know if you have or not), it has been my recent happy experience that tracking my car allows me to drive at both a limit and an amount of time which is just unobtainable on any public road.
For instance, in 36 years of sometime sprited driving, I'd never gotten within a light year of the type of braking that I can do 5 or more times on every lap!

I imagine that the difference in car control w/ AWD & RWD will only show up at these limits...
so my .02 - read about, ask about it (which you have..) & then go track it...

Greg Fishman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Good timing Anir. Good post also, I just have a feeling you are wasting your typing skills on a troll....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">With respect to your suggestion to correct understeer with more throttle, Greg must certainly remember one of my first track events, when I apexed way too early in turn 8 at Putnam and was running big-time wide at the track out. He was yelling at me to lift slightly, but I misunderstood and thought he wanted me to put my foot in it. So, I obliged by giving it max throttle. Sure enough, understeer increased, and I put the two right wheels onto the dirt. Fortunately, I managed to get it back on track in one piece. I'm sure Greg lost a bit of hair that day!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Anir,
Fortunately I have most of my hair left. Unfortunately that was far from my scariest moment on the track with a student.

You learned a great lesson that day, and besides a little dust(and a slight miscommunication)it was very cheap. Imagine that same scenario on a two lane mountain road. That experience and how to prevent it, may one day save your car and your self from serious damage.

Kent M. Wood

I appreciate the help. I post a simple question and I get bombarded with assumptions and judgment. And Greg Fishhead thinks I'm a troll.

I make it an effort to learn and listen. That's why I respect people enough to ask questions and meet them on their level.

Some of you have spent so much time trying to defend yourselves. Greg, that's what's wasting everyone's time.

Amir, I appreciate your input. No doubt track experience will be priceless. Professional instruction is on the horizon. Although my brother taught me at 14 how to break a Porsche at 85+ mph as hard as possible and heel and toe into my daily driving habits and how to correct a complete sideways slide at 70 in the rain...I still welcome valuable input.

My only argument, skills are directly transferrable from street to track and vice versa if those skills are accurate. I try to be humble listen, "Greg", or I wouldn't have asked the question.

Thanks to those of you who have give some good advice. and yes, I typed understeer instead of oversteer in reference to 356 driving technique. sorry for the oversight

Kent

Kent M. Wood

Anir, I started my driving using the slow in, fast out method that you've mentioned, but have been working more on trail braking...it seems that the AWD Porsche won't take kindly to that technique. Besides, trail braking is far to risky for street/road driving.

Thanks, Kent

Mike in Chi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Experienced advice and references welcome...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You asked for experienced advice and references. You received it from drivers far more experienced than you. In return you insulted them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I've considered going to Porsche Driving Experience, but am not thrilled about learning how to better drive a RWD Porsche </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Did you call them and ask any of those all important questions about their program and your concerns?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> it seems that the AWD Porsche won't
take kindly to that technique. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'd like to ask you a couple of those "questions". What is your understanding of trail-braking? What is the source that led you to believe AWD Porsches don't take kindly to it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> had excellent training by my two older brothers </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Never mind, I won't ask you that question...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> and then wonder what subtle mistakes I'm making </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You don't have to wonder. You just made a bunch of them. But they weren't very subtle.

Get out of here kid, time to do your math homework.

Adam Richman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Help me drive smoother at speed. I'm taking delivery in Europe of a new Carrera 4S. I've considered going to Porsche Driving Experience, but am not thrilled about learning how to better drive a RWD Porsche and then wonder what subtle mistakes I'm making in my AWD C4S that are keeping me from being a smoother driver at speed and thus safer.

Experienced advice and references welcome...

Thanks, Kent</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">References:
(prefer not to on a public message board but if its entirely necessary, email me)

Experience:
~6000 miles open track experience (3 different cars)
~2400 race/qualifying miles
19 club races
4 race wins
1 SCCA IT enduro points championship
SCCA National License
NASA National License
HPDE Instructor (NASA/BMWCCA/SpeedTrial/THSCC)

Note: I preface all that I am about to say as simply my opinion.

Advice:
To drive smoother at speed (only considering an on-track situation) you need to slow down the information that is coming into you eyes, hands primarily (nose a bit too I guess) and your tuchus. Unfortunately there is only one way to slow this information down, slow the car down. You can work around this by speeding up the rate at which you process it. I'd say that allowing your autonomic response system to handle the steering corrections, throttle modulation and brake modulation, where your hands go, where your feet go, etc ... while you are left to process the "new stuff" coming in - which if you go fast enough seems to never stop (and I ain't that fast so it will take a while for me to get to the level I want to be) is really the only way to achieve this. Unfortunately, you need seat time on-track to begin working towards making these happen without being conscious of it.

I have instructed a dozen or so students (and I know guys here who have instructed that many since their last post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and admittedly I am very junior to them) over the past couple years and I can say to a one, it never mattered what kind of car I drove as to my ability to give them instruction nor did it make much change as to what I told them to do. The "basic" principles are the same, 2WD/4WD/FF/FR/MR/RR (but in all honesty I haven't instructed a student in a MR car so you can throw that out if you want) they must learn to brake the car down in a straight line, compress their braking, use minimal steering inputs, develop their feel for transitions to throttle/to brake/and combinations therein. There are other things too but that stuff has to come first. The thing you have to consider that differentiates any (irrespective of how aggressive or how well instructed) street driving from track driving is that there are things you do not encounter on the street that you do on track. I don't have the time to go into them but once you experience it (not taking away from your country roads background) you will understand what I mean (I have been on both sides of this equation, I take it from your comments you have not - no offense but I win this one). You might find that trail braking is not a good idea for your car or style. You might find that heel-toeing isn't necessary all the time or maybe its necessary ALL the time. You might find out that the car needs a little TT lift or LFB to get it out of the turn. You might find that turning out helps you enter the turn. You might find you like a tail-happy car. You might find you like a porker. You might find out a lot of things first and foremost that there is a lot to learn - for anyone and I gladly include myself in that.

As for catching a car sliding sideways at 70mph, you righted it because it was inherrently rightable b/c of the speed and tires or conditions. Any slide (and anything over the tire's slip angle is what I consider a slide) past 45 degrees is impossible even for Senna (now driving out of a 720 was something completely different <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Catching a push? I actually reprimand my students when the fight a push instead of going two or four off track - they aren't DOING anything but freaking out and lifting and then saying "hey, I caught it." I'd read what these guys are saying - I think they are quite right in saying that experience yeilds smooth and safe results. Face it, if you get a car sideways at 70mph, you don't know as much as you suggest you do.

Take what I have to say with a grain of salt - I am not that good and don't have that much experience compared to others. I have been driving for 17 years on the street and considered myself quite competent before hitting the race track. I now look at those days as those in which I had not yet "learned" how to drive.

Greg Fishman

Kent,
Go away, you are obviously some teenage kid or an adult with the mentality of one. (actually I just insulted many teenagers and am sorry for that).

You have not made an effort to listen or ask questions. You spent at least two posts telling us what you think we should be telling you.

Don't go away mad, just go away...

Mike in Chi

Hey Adam

Impressive resume.

I have 18 races, but no wins. (the only time I've led the pack across the start finish line was on a restart, if you catch my drift <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

I'm going to send your advice to my son, who is just starting track days with BMWCCA.

Love to have you in the right seat some time.

Greg,

Why would you care if he was mad when he went away?
And I'd like you in the right seat some time, too. I'm hoping for Putnam this year.

M

Alan G.

Kent, (if you are still here)

No one should resort to calling anyone names, and no one has the right to tell anyone to go away. People did get defensive when it was not needed (including you).

If we (you) really desire to drive well the first thing that is needed is to take a false sense of "manhood" (ego)out of the picture. There is no shame in raising one's arm out the window and pointing a faster car (usually driver) by.

I did my first DE this year and I highly overated my skill going in. It was on a short track, and it seemed like I had a train following me most of the day. I did not pass another car until my fifth day out.

You got some great (free)advise above, perhaps some assumptions were made but more expereinced PCA drivers have seen many many "hot shoes" come in and get the same experience that I got. The only real way to find out is to buy a helmet and get in the game. If you can start farther on the learning curve, great, if not SO WHAT?

You will never learn much about that C4 (at or near its potential) on the road. The subtle differences will only matter if you are driving at a "Reckless Driving Ticket" rate. Ego will only stiffle driver developement.

Anir

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Anir, I started my driving using the slow in, fast out method that you've mentioned, but have been working more on trail braking...it seems that the AWD Porsche won't take kindly to that technique. Besides, trail braking is far to risky for street/road driving.Thanks, Kent</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Kent,

I would disagree with you. Trail braking is a valuable technique to many experienced drivers in both RWD and AWD cars. And it's not risky for street driving, if you have the experience to safely apply it. Personally, I still do all of my braking in a straight line before turn-in, because I simply do not believe I am ready to start seriously toying with trail-braking yet.

Take everyone's advice. Toss the pride / bravado out the window, look yourself in the mirror and admit (as we all did) that you do not know 10% as much as you think you do, and join us at the track (may I suggest Sebring? Greg, for one, has instructed and raced there.). You'd love it.

Also, you might consider apologizing to those very valuable and experienced board members who were simply trying to help you. In all honesty, you have been anything but "humble" in your postings.

If you are indeed correcting "complete sideways slides at 70 in the rain" on the street, you are simply the greatest driver in the history of motorsport and need no instruction from anyone on this board or anywhere else for that matter. And, if you are pursuing this sort of behavior on a public road, you need to have your license revoked for the safety of yourself and those around you.

Mike in Chi

Alan

A wise, insightful post. With that attitude, I'm sure you will progress up that learning curve very quickly.

But I'd like to respectfully disagree with one point.

IMVHO, it is alright to tell someone to go away under these circumstances. I am 99% sure this is a troll, and not a very clever one (100% sure of that). When he resorted to unprovoked name-calling and unjustified insults, I believe we all should invite him to leave.

Kent M. Wood

Those of you know who I'm talking about, you are just really egomaniac jerks. I've continually thanked people in my posts that actually had something subjective to say without making assumptions. I've admitted mistakes, I've admitted needing to learn, I've been judged from the word go and JC admitted he pre-maturely judged me...and then I'm a troll that disrespects...my motto in life has always been, "respect is deserved by those that respect first and none other."

Get off your high horses, no matter how good a driver you are, you are still disliked by most people I'm sure.

Alan and Adam, thank you for a mature and helpful post, each. I do intend to follow many good suggestions from this forum and look forward to not proving anything, but becoming a better driver.

As for the 70 mph sideways slide, I hydroplaned instantly to 45 degrees of the road, and because I'd spent countless hours forcing spins on wet and icy pavement at a local airport, I straightened the car out softly as that "off-road" practice ensured. Senna and Schumacher have done worse, but I'd never judge their driving ability based upon a situation that can happen to anyone.

Thank God we all have opinions...this would be boring if we didn't.

Signed: Humbled, Novice, Troll

Greg Fishman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>Greg,

Why would you care if he was mad when he went away?
And I'd like you in the right seat some time, too. I'm hoping for Putnam this year.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No, not at all Mike, just trying to be polite.
We will definetly do some track time at Putnam. The Wheel Source events are a lot of fun, we had a great time hanging out with some of the other Chicago guys.

Mike in Chi

Greg

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> We will definetly do some track time at Putnam. The Wheel Source events are a lot of fun, we had a great time hanging out with some of the other Chicago guys. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Great, count me in.

Adam Richman

Mike in Chi, thanks man, that's a nice compliment. I really liked the BMWCCA program. I bet your son has a great time and learns a ton. I am not sure you'd want me in the right seat but I have become an absolute meanie reviewing video ;-) I mentioned in another thread that I got a lot of help in the form of a former pro road racer mentoring me this year. Between him (his wife too - she crewed for a couple of IMSA teams - they really really really know their stuff) on the radio, the debriefs, putting him into a "loose" car (15 minutes later, "well, yeah, its a little loose if you aren't pushing it through that section ... drive harder man ") and most of all reviewing video ** - I learned a ton. That was the most worthwile time/effort investment I have EVER made in this hobby. I highly recommend it to anyone - just be prepared b/c even if you can run that kind of guy's lap times one lap per race, you'll notice they can stay under 1 second on-pace irrespective of traffic - its humbling and freaking unbelievable.

** the combination of having someone who really knows what a myriad situations look like and not just guessing "what should I have done" helps. Having tape of that kind of driver in "your" car helps moreso as you can see what your car can do at the limit and what the limit is. You can also hear where the motor is and - to me - it seems like a very good judge of measure to hear yourself attain the same sound in the same corner kind of thing. Plus, having that video running means you cannot kid yourself about "nah, I was braking at x" or "I was apexing that turn at y."