There seems to be some controversy. Shuffling the steering wheel keeps you from crossing your arms and is a more relaxed form of driving. It also allows for faster lock to lock corrections if/when needed.

Fixed grip steering keeps you well oriented as to the direction of the steering wheel and therefore the tires under most conditions, and helps you mentally get into a turn. You can always shuffle steer if you ever need large corrections.

Which do you all prefer? I seem to have met people on both sides of the issue. I've also seen both in videos on a race track.

 

When I drive my truck, I shuffle steer. When I drive my Porsche, I keep the hands at 10 and 2. I will also say that while it's a limited sample, my observation of the students I have had in DEs, the ones that shuffle steer don't seem to be as smooth as those who don't.

Karl

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Palting:
<strong>Which do you all prefer? I seem to have met people on both sides of the issue. I've also seen both in videos on a race track.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">In my opinion, the correct answer is "it depends". It depends on the radius of the turn, whether you are in the turn beside another car or not, the way the car is handling, etc, etc. In high performance driving, you never want to be locked into a single way of doing things. The best racers in the world are those who can adapt. Work to make sure that you have as many tools available to you to use as possible: double-clutching, left foot braking, shuffle steering, etc. You may not use them all the time, but having the ability to use them when needed is the key.

 

I think you should have your hands at closer to 9 and 3 because it gives you more range of motion. Sometimes in tight turns you will have to do a shuffle steer of sorts.

Watch the pro races and especially the in car cams. I remember watching footage of the Alex Job car and Lucas Luhr driving and I learned a lot about footwork as well as where your hands should be. Ocassionally you will see those guys shuffle steering but most of the time there hands stay on the wheel.

 

I had an instructor ride with me once and he pretty much raked me over the coals because I was shuffle steering. He told me to try driving with my hands locked at 10 and 3. On the 2nd day, he told me to go back to shuffle steering because I was smoother.

His concern was that if I got into a spin, I wouldn't know which direction the wheels were actually turned. I can agree with that very easily.

But I just have a hard time keeping my hands locked in 1 position.

He also made a comment about "you will never be a racer until you learn how to drive without shuffle steering" which I have a difficult time agreeing with. I have a hard time believing there is a single way to drive a race car as it relates to steering input.

Brian

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>I think you should have your hands at closer to 9 and 3 because it gives you more range of motion. Sometimes in tight turns you will have to do a shuffle steer of sorts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I actually take more of an Italian approach, and my hands tend to stay around 8 and 4 when I shuffle steer. If I'm going to take the turn without shuffling, as I setup for the turn, I usually regrip the wheel at a place with my hands directly across from each other that will allow me to make the turn without crossing my arms up too much.

Of course, none of this applies to my Formula Car, seeing as there are only two spots on the wheel that your hands can even fit anyway since the top is cut out for a view of the guages and the bottom is flat to clear my legs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>Watch the pro races and especially the in car cams. I remember watching footage of the Alex Job car and Lucas Luhr driving and I learned a lot about footwork as well as where your hands should be. Ocassionally you will see those guys shuffle steering but most of the time there hands stay on the wheel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Be careful about steering though. The cars you see the Pro's driving are often setup with a quicker ratio steering box than the street cars a lot of folks are tracking. They may not need to shuffle in turns where you definitely would. I'm not sure how that applies to Porsche's. It's been a while since I piloted one around the track.

If you really want to see something cool, watch Neal Sapp's in car from Road Atlanta World Challenge TC in 2000. He never touches the steering wheel with his right hand (that I remember) the entire race.

 

This reminds me of a funny story. I had a novice student recently and I was telling him to keep his hands at "9 and 3". Well, he kept doing a wild shuffle and I kept correcting him. He could not seem to keep himself from doing an insane shuffle at every corner. I was perplexed. I dropped the hand position coaching and thought I would discuss it in the pits because it was becoming a distraction on the track.

When we got in the pits we went over it again. Now I found the problem. He thought I meant "9 and 3" ALWAYS, regardless of where the wheel was. So he was shuffling the wheel to to keep his hands fixed. He didn't understand to keep his hands on the wheel.

We got a good laugh on that one.

 

Hi JC, that's a great story.

I know there are many who think you should always keep your hands in approx. 10-2 or 9-3, but I think it depends on the driver and situation. I use both depending on the corner. I use "fixed" steering (not JC's student's fixed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) more than 90% of the time; however, in certain very tight turns I find shuffle steering helps me to control rotation better. So I guess my vote is to use the type of steering that allows you to feel the most connected with the car through the corner.

 

Good point Vinny. I shuffle steer myself but I teach fixed "9 and 3" as a baseline. The student will eventually figure out his own style from that baseline.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bryan Watts:
<strong>[QUOTE]Be careful about steering though. The cars you see the Pro's driving are often setup with a quicker ratio steering box than the street cars a lot of folks are tracking. They may not need to shuffle in turns where you definitely would. I'm not sure how that applies to Porsche's. It's been a while since I piloted one around the track.

If you really want to see something cool, watch Neal Sapp's in car from Road Atlanta World Challenge TC in 2000. He never touches the steering wheel with his right hand (that I remember) the entire race.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Makes sense, in my street car turned race car the ratio is pretty good and you can keep your hands on the wheel except for some really tight turns. By in car I meant cars in the ALMS, not open wheel. A smaller steering wheel also helps.

I watched that video of Neal and it was great. Not exactly what you would teach someone but it worked well for him. I have made a few one handed corrections also but it wasn't intentional.

 

Plus sometimes you are best with no hands on the wheel. Those that have done it know what I mean.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Plus sometimes you are best with no hands on the wheel. Those that have done it know what I mean.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Like cresting Madness (MidOhio) way too fast, had the steering wheel not snapped out of my hands...
From what I am told, this is a old autocross trick
Kids,dont try this at home!!!

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Plus sometimes you are best with no hands on the wheel. Those that have done it know what I mean.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">We can take this two ways. Are you talking on track, or is there a hot steamy story behind this Mr. Fishman?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

 

I shuffle steer in street cars at the track. I try not to shuffle steer in the SRF. Try being the operative word. The difference is the SRF has about a half turn either way to lock, while the street cars have 3 or so.

Plus, as the Fish says, that way its easier to let go when the need arises.

 

A few months ago I had Cort Wagner instruct me at Buttonwillow. We specifically talked about steering and his input was 9 and 3 on the wheel and do NOT shuffle. I find it works much better than shuffling particularly when you have very high speed track sections. I still fall back into the shuffle steering habit at times but I am getting better.