944 CUP SERIES COMES TO SO CAL!!!!!!!
09-04-2002, 01:15 PM
#16
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>GEO-
Hey, you're quick with the replies! You really don't have a job, do you?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at the moment.
Up until 2.5 weeks ago I was the Inventory Accounting Manager for Big A Auto Parts. This is the second shut-down I've been through with them in 5 years. First was a Chapter 11 closing and when some of management bought part of the company I went with them. Now it's gone for good only 3.5 years later. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
Anybody in Houston need a bean counter?
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>I'm happy to see some people out there with enthusiasm about racing 944s. I have a very different opinion, however, about the potential of the car in IT. I have spent tens of thousands of $$$$$ of my own money and customers' money building and developing these cars. Until SCCA looses their hard-on for Porches and adjusts the weight, you're facing a long, frustrating road. Hope you're in this for the fun(?).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I'm not in it for the money.
Seriously, yes, I realize it's a major uphill battle. But, there are people who do win with 944s, although not so much this year with the stupid classification of the E36 Bimmer.
I don't expect to go out and run at the front. I don't have the funds to field a front runner in the first year. Perhaps in 2-4 years if the SCCA does something to correct their error with the E36. Otherwise, I'll just have fun developing the car.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the 944 is the hot ticket in ITS. That is currently the E36 325i. Before that it was the Gen II RX-7. Before that the 240Z. I just personally don't like spec or one make series. Most of my responses here, however, address falacies about the cost of a competitive 944 Cup or Spec series car. The rules are basically the same as IT, so it's only a matter of time until someone spends the money. I'm not trying to be a PITA - just a realist. And I think I'm realistic about IT. I know what I'm getting into I think. I would just suggest that folks building a 944 Spec car get the GCR & ITCS and make sure they don't do anything that is illegal in IT since the rules (other than CR) are virtually the same. It just keeps your options open.
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>Stay away from Koni yellows (I assume you mean the Sports)and cone air filters!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Out of curiosity, what is the issue with cone filters?
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>Consider this: Koni 30 series are high pressure monotubes, rebound adjustable with spherical bearings in the mounts. They cost $110 each! Basically the same internals as the $500 3012!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow! Really?? I've been looking for a Koni damper to go with the 8611s I'm going to be using up front. Are they double adjustable? Can you get them w/o a threaded body?
<strong>GEO-
Hey, you're quick with the replies! You really don't have a job, do you?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at the moment.
Up until 2.5 weeks ago I was the Inventory Accounting Manager for Big A Auto Parts. This is the second shut-down I've been through with them in 5 years. First was a Chapter 11 closing and when some of management bought part of the company I went with them. Now it's gone for good only 3.5 years later. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
Anybody in Houston need a bean counter?
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>I'm happy to see some people out there with enthusiasm about racing 944s. I have a very different opinion, however, about the potential of the car in IT. I have spent tens of thousands of $$$$$ of my own money and customers' money building and developing these cars. Until SCCA looses their hard-on for Porches and adjusts the weight, you're facing a long, frustrating road. Hope you're in this for the fun(?).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I'm not in it for the money.
Seriously, yes, I realize it's a major uphill battle. But, there are people who do win with 944s, although not so much this year with the stupid classification of the E36 Bimmer.
I don't expect to go out and run at the front. I don't have the funds to field a front runner in the first year. Perhaps in 2-4 years if the SCCA does something to correct their error with the E36. Otherwise, I'll just have fun developing the car.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the 944 is the hot ticket in ITS. That is currently the E36 325i. Before that it was the Gen II RX-7. Before that the 240Z. I just personally don't like spec or one make series. Most of my responses here, however, address falacies about the cost of a competitive 944 Cup or Spec series car. The rules are basically the same as IT, so it's only a matter of time until someone spends the money. I'm not trying to be a PITA - just a realist. And I think I'm realistic about IT. I know what I'm getting into I think. I would just suggest that folks building a 944 Spec car get the GCR & ITCS and make sure they don't do anything that is illegal in IT since the rules (other than CR) are virtually the same. It just keeps your options open.
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>Stay away from Koni yellows (I assume you mean the Sports)and cone air filters!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Out of curiosity, what is the issue with cone filters?
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>Consider this: Koni 30 series are high pressure monotubes, rebound adjustable with spherical bearings in the mounts. They cost $110 each! Basically the same internals as the $500 3012!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow! Really?? I've been looking for a Koni damper to go with the 8611s I'm going to be using up front. Are they double adjustable? Can you get them w/o a threaded body?
09-04-2002, 01:47 PM
#17
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Geo,
Thanks for in the input. I guess it really is wishful thinking on my part. I have talked to the race director and efforts will be made to keep costs down, but you are quite right that things may change in the future.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd bet my last Shiner Bock (nectar of the gods) it will. Sorry.
The falacy of a restricted class is that it's cheap. They are cheap to run mid-pack or even at the front of the mid-pack, but to run up front will always be a lot more money.
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>(AS side note why do I have to BUY IT rules? Everyone else's I can get for free on the net! I understand publishing costs, but how about a free download ... Hello SCCA this is the 21st Century <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> )
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is something that is currently being discussed on the Improved Touring Forum. If you send me an e-mail <geo31@earthlink.net> I'll send you a pdf of the rules. Now when you buy the GCR and Specs you get a CD with pdf of the same.
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>The biggest problem I see is this. (please correct me if am wrong)
Some guy with big buck decides to go Porsche racing. He thinks he is really fast and really cool since he ALWAYS passes people in the DE with is 996 TT. "Time to go 944-spec racing and show them boys how its done!" With the limited mods allowed by rules, cars built to the sprit of the rules will be pretty much the same. In short order Mr Bucks buys a 944 and has some guy prep it for him. Then goes out on the track and is 2-3 seconds behind the leaders. "How can that be?" "I was so much faster in my 996 TT!" "Must be the car!"
His mechanic then fiddle farts around with the car and Mr Buck is still at the back 2-3 seconds behind. In the off season Mr Bucks really spends those bucks to "ensure" he has the winning car since he cannot accept losing in business or in life. Come next season he has "rule bending" or slightly illegal car and then starts running at the front. He is happy the series goes down hill. 
There is no where to hide lack of driver skill in series like this. Some guys ego's won't allow them to be behind and there wallets will take over. Once this sets in we are going down a slippery slope. I guess then we must rely on the detailed wording of the rules and strict rule interpretation by the organizers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think cheating is not what you will have to worry about. Cheaters usually don't win - at least not for long. What you will have to worry about is the person who spends the money to leave nothing on the table as far as prep goes. Most people horribly underestimate the extent you can go in prep and tuning. No detail is too small in restricted racing. You know, you can use the $4000 Koni 2817/2812 combo in 944 Spec (and IT as well)? What happens when a talented driver shows up with this package and knows what to do with it?
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Geo for my sake and everyone else looking for cheap fun, friendly racing I really hope you are wrong about the cost escalation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a nice idea, but I doubt it. Go racing and have fun doing it. If you are racing because you think you will win in your first year, you're in it for the wrong reason IMHO. Yes, it can happen, but it's rare AND you will almost have to spend about double or triple your budget to get there.
Anyhow, my real point here is there is nothing in the 944 Spec rules to make it cheaper than racing in IT. Nothing. In fact, the no balancing rule makes it more expensive. Ironic, huh? I think the rules makers should rethink this.
<strong>Geo,
Thanks for in the input. I guess it really is wishful thinking on my part.
I have talked to the race director and efforts will be made to keep costs down, but you are quite right that things may change in the future. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd bet my last Shiner Bock (nectar of the gods) it will. Sorry.
The falacy of a restricted class is that it's cheap. They are cheap to run mid-pack or even at the front of the mid-pack, but to run up front will always be a lot more money.
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>(AS side note why do I have to BUY IT rules? Everyone else's I can get for free on the net! I understand publishing costs, but how about a free download ... Hello SCCA this is the 21st Century <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> )
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is something that is currently being discussed on the Improved Touring Forum. If you send me an e-mail <geo31@earthlink.net> I'll send you a pdf of the rules. Now when you buy the GCR and Specs you get a CD with pdf of the same.
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>The biggest problem I see is this. (please correct me if am wrong)
Some guy with big buck decides to go Porsche racing. He thinks he is really fast and really cool since he ALWAYS passes people in the DE with is 996 TT. "Time to go 944-spec racing and show them boys how its done!" With the limited mods allowed by rules, cars built to the sprit of the rules will be pretty much the same. In short order Mr Bucks buys a 944 and has some guy prep it for him. Then goes out on the track and is 2-3 seconds behind the leaders. "How can that be?" "I was so much faster in my 996 TT!" "Must be the car!"
His mechanic then fiddle farts around with the car and Mr Buck is still at the back 2-3 seconds behind. In the off season Mr Bucks really spends those bucks to "ensure" he has the winning car since he cannot accept losing in business or in life. Come next season he has "rule bending" or slightly illegal car and then starts running at the front. He is happy the series goes down hill. There is no where to hide lack of driver skill in series like this. Some guys ego's won't allow them to be behind and there wallets will take over. Once this sets in we are going down a slippery slope. I guess then we must rely on the detailed wording of the rules and strict rule interpretation by the organizers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think cheating is not what you will have to worry about. Cheaters usually don't win - at least not for long. What you will have to worry about is the person who spends the money to leave nothing on the table as far as prep goes. Most people horribly underestimate the extent you can go in prep and tuning. No detail is too small in restricted racing. You know, you can use the $4000 Koni 2817/2812 combo in 944 Spec (and IT as well)? What happens when a talented driver shows up with this package and knows what to do with it?
[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>Geo for my sake and everyone else looking for cheap fun, friendly racing I really hope you are wrong about the cost escalation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a nice idea, but I doubt it. Go racing and have fun doing it. If you are racing because you think you will win in your first year, you're in it for the wrong reason IMHO. Yes, it can happen, but it's rare AND you will almost have to spend about double or triple your budget to get there.
Anyhow, my real point here is there is nothing in the 944 Spec rules to make it cheaper than racing in IT. Nothing. In fact, the no balancing rule makes it more expensive. Ironic, huh? I think the rules makers should rethink this.
09-04-2002, 02:40 PM
#18
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Geo-
The 30 series are single (rebound) adjustable only, so you have to get the bump right. The Koni guys can help you with that. They are steel body, unthreaded (Koni does make a sleeve for this damper). They can be run inverted, significantly reducing unsprung weight.
Cone filters as usually mounted at the AFM, where they ingest hot air from the engine compartment. You're much better off with a K&N in the stock filter housing.
The 30 series are single (rebound) adjustable only, so you have to get the bump right. The Koni guys can help you with that. They are steel body, unthreaded (Koni does make a sleeve for this damper). They can be run inverted, significantly reducing unsprung weight.
Cone filters as usually mounted at the AFM, where they ingest hot air from the engine compartment. You're much better off with a K&N in the stock filter housing.
09-04-2002, 05:25 PM
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I'm gonna have to disagree with various assumptions as to the "future" of the 944 series.
I've been running an NA 944 since the mid eighties,starting in what would today be described as a "spec" class.
my experience in this particular arena is that the vast majority of drivers will not go to the expense and trouble of building "ringer" motors as they regularly do in SCCA...it's simply not the mind set of the typical POC/PCA club racer.
The 944's running today in the "stock" classes are no more developed today than nearly two decades ago with groups such as POC.
serious about their racing? yes. obsessed? not.
There will most certainly be cheating...no question. but i know from experience with these cars that 10-15 additional hp sticks out like a sore thumb...glaring.
These guys just aint going to put $8K into a motor that's run in a basicaly regional forum.
These are going to be "porsche guys" not SCCA guys by and large. the die hard ITS drivers are going to be handful out there...thats good,but i dont see this series ever approaching intesity of an SCCA class.
I've been running an NA 944 since the mid eighties,starting in what would today be described as a "spec" class.
my experience in this particular arena is that the vast majority of drivers will not go to the expense and trouble of building "ringer" motors as they regularly do in SCCA...it's simply not the mind set of the typical POC/PCA club racer.
The 944's running today in the "stock" classes are no more developed today than nearly two decades ago with groups such as POC.
serious about their racing? yes. obsessed? not.
There will most certainly be cheating...no question. but i know from experience with these cars that 10-15 additional hp sticks out like a sore thumb...glaring.
These guys just aint going to put $8K into a motor that's run in a basicaly regional forum.
These are going to be "porsche guys" not SCCA guys by and large. the die hard ITS drivers are going to be handful out there...thats good,but i dont see this series ever approaching intesity of an SCCA class.
09-04-2002, 05:58 PM
#20
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong>I'm gonna have to disagree with various assumptions as to the "future" of the 944 series.
I've been running an NA 944 since the mid eighties,starting in what would today be described as a "spec" class.
my experience in this particular arena is that the vast majority of drivers will not go to the expense and trouble of building "ringer" motors as they regularly do in SCCA...it's simply not the mind set of the typical POC/PCA club racer.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but when you say the vast majority will not build fully built engines (I don't think they are ringers), are you saying that you don't have to spend a lot to run at the front of the mid-pack or win?
<strong>I'm gonna have to disagree with various assumptions as to the "future" of the 944 series.
I've been running an NA 944 since the mid eighties,starting in what would today be described as a "spec" class.
my experience in this particular arena is that the vast majority of drivers will not go to the expense and trouble of building "ringer" motors as they regularly do in SCCA...it's simply not the mind set of the typical POC/PCA club racer.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but when you say the vast majority will not build fully built engines (I don't think they are ringers), are you saying that you don't have to spend a lot to run at the front of the mid-pack or win?
09-04-2002, 06:35 PM
#21
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Well....sort of.
If SCCA drivers with to the hilt motors arrive in droves they're gonna be hard to beat if they've got even decent drivers in them.
My prediction however is that the series will be most hotly contested by people driving 6k cars going for a points championship. the ITS guys will be around here and there shaking their cars down for THEIR series with SCCA.
bottom line.... a non-ITS car driven properly will run at the front in this series on any given day.
As an example: in the mid/late eighties,we were driving our stock 944's (non R rated tires,utterly stock suspension,no chip,nuthin)
to 1:40 flats at willow springs. this was BEFORE the current track mods were implemented. how quick are the IT 44's going there today?
If SCCA drivers with to the hilt motors arrive in droves they're gonna be hard to beat if they've got even decent drivers in them.
My prediction however is that the series will be most hotly contested by people driving 6k cars going for a points championship. the ITS guys will be around here and there shaking their cars down for THEIR series with SCCA.
bottom line.... a non-ITS car driven properly will run at the front in this series on any given day.
As an example: in the mid/late eighties,we were driving our stock 944's (non R rated tires,utterly stock suspension,no chip,nuthin)
to 1:40 flats at willow springs. this was BEFORE the current track mods were implemented. how quick are the IT 44's going there today?
09-04-2002, 10:31 PM
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Quick'44-
In the first two rounds of the VA Region 944 Cup an ITS car (the same one) has won all 4 races. Until the last race (race 4), I'm not sure that a PCA car placed in the top 5. I know the ITS guys running and they're serious about winning. I've also heard that Milledge has just finished 3 or 4 engines for guys getting into the series!
In the first two rounds of the VA Region 944 Cup an ITS car (the same one) has won all 4 races. Until the last race (race 4), I'm not sure that a PCA car placed in the top 5. I know the ITS guys running and they're serious about winning. I've also heard that Milledge has just finished 3 or 4 engines for guys getting into the series!
09-04-2002, 11:25 PM
#23
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by 944GURU:
<strong>Quick'44-
In the first two rounds of the VA Region 944 Cup an ITS car (the same one) has won all 4 races. Until the last race (race 4), I'm not sure that a PCA car placed in the top 5. I know the ITS guys running and they're serious about winning. I've also heard that Milledge has just finished 3 or 4 engines for guys getting into the series!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you.
It's just human nature - or at least the racer's nature.
<strong>Quick'44-
In the first two rounds of the VA Region 944 Cup an ITS car (the same one) has won all 4 races. Until the last race (race 4), I'm not sure that a PCA car placed in the top 5. I know the ITS guys running and they're serious about winning. I've also heard that Milledge has just finished 3 or 4 engines for guys getting into the series!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you.
It's just human nature - or at least the racer's nature.
09-05-2002, 03:09 PM
#24
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That's not surprising,coming from back east,it WILL surprise the hell outa me if it occurs here on the west coast...time will tell.
I've run with PCA nationally for many many years and consider them deep in talented drivers. however...they are years behind what's been going on out here in terms of driver development in these PARTICULAR cars.
Pure speculation...but i believe that there are two distinct "pools" of drivers back east...
SCCA guys...a very tough bunch with loads of seat time,and a fairly new breed of 944 drivers. less seat time (by a wide margin) and simply enjoying getting their feet wet in the wheel to wheel scene.
Out west you'll find all of the above..plus an added dimension....POC drivers. this is NOT to say that POC breeds more talent,only that they've been racing just such cars for a long long time.
They're a realtively small group,maybe six to ten drivers running eligible 944's but they've got the lap times to run with the ITS cars i've seen.
It should be very intersting to see how things sort themselves out. personaly...i hope this does not become a secondary ITS series. if it does,it'll be up to everyone else to simply step up or settle for mid-pack. i suspect that would'nt be a tragedy for most guys,it's great to just have a spec series to run in...period.
I've run with PCA nationally for many many years and consider them deep in talented drivers. however...they are years behind what's been going on out here in terms of driver development in these PARTICULAR cars.
Pure speculation...but i believe that there are two distinct "pools" of drivers back east...
SCCA guys...a very tough bunch with loads of seat time,and a fairly new breed of 944 drivers. less seat time (by a wide margin) and simply enjoying getting their feet wet in the wheel to wheel scene.
Out west you'll find all of the above..plus an added dimension....POC drivers. this is NOT to say that POC breeds more talent,only that they've been racing just such cars for a long long time.
They're a realtively small group,maybe six to ten drivers running eligible 944's but they've got the lap times to run with the ITS cars i've seen.
It should be very intersting to see how things sort themselves out. personaly...i hope this does not become a secondary ITS series. if it does,it'll be up to everyone else to simply step up or settle for mid-pack. i suspect that would'nt be a tragedy for most guys,it's great to just have a spec series to run in...period.
09-05-2002, 03:38 PM
#25
Race Director
I really hope these series stay cheap, but are we overlooking something here????
Like $$$$$ .. Sponsor $$$$ , Prize MONEY$$$?
I think the PCA guys just race for the "Fun" no season points, no dollars, no big fancy promotion. While many take it very seriously the only thing you get by winning is pride and possibly a small token trophy.
With 944-Cup having prize money... does this bring in a whole new equation???
BTW Geo - you have mail
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
Like $$$$$ .. Sponsor $$$$ , Prize MONEY$$$?
I think the PCA guys just race for the "Fun" no season points, no dollars, no big fancy promotion. While many take it very seriously the only thing you get by winning is pride and possibly a small token trophy.
With 944-Cup having prize money... does this bring in a whole new equation???
BTW Geo - you have mail
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
09-05-2002, 06:35 PM
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[quote]In the first two rounds of the VA Region 944 Cup an ITS car (the same one) has won all 4 races. Until the last race (race 4), I'm not sure that a PCA car placed in the top 5. I know the ITS guys running and they're serious about winning. I've also heard that Milledge has just finished 3 or 4 engines for guys getting into the series!<hr></blockquote>
Correction: In race 3 a PCA car placed 3rd and in race 4 the same PCA car placed 2nd.
The disparages in SCCA vs PCA weights is the primary reason. PCA cars are in some cases 200 to 300 pounds heavier than most, if not all SCCA cars. This is due to the limitations of PCA in their club racing rules. The adaptation of the PCA rules in the 944 Cup to allow the removal of the interior (as well as a few other things) is to help those cars reach the minimum weight. Simply put, only 1 or 2 PCA cars have competed at the minimum weight requirement... hence the top SCCA finishes.
Correction: In race 3 a PCA car placed 3rd and in race 4 the same PCA car placed 2nd.
The disparages in SCCA vs PCA weights is the primary reason. PCA cars are in some cases 200 to 300 pounds heavier than most, if not all SCCA cars. This is due to the limitations of PCA in their club racing rules. The adaptation of the PCA rules in the 944 Cup to allow the removal of the interior (as well as a few other things) is to help those cars reach the minimum weight. Simply put, only 1 or 2 PCA cars have competed at the minimum weight requirement... hence the top SCCA finishes.
09-05-2002, 06:40 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong>Well said...
I too hope that the "prize" does'nt become a motivating factor for people here...never good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Another correction... the prizes for the VA chapter of the 944 Cup are most often in the form of discounts or gift certificates. Aside from perhaps 1 prize (not awarded to the top finisher anyway), no prize will defray a large sum of money spent to win... or even the cost of racing (entry fee, tires and gas)... thereby voiding any true motivation prizes may have.
<strong>Well said...
I too hope that the "prize" does'nt become a motivating factor for people here...never good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Another correction... the prizes for the VA chapter of the 944 Cup are most often in the form of discounts or gift certificates. Aside from perhaps 1 prize (not awarded to the top finisher anyway), no prize will defray a large sum of money spent to win... or even the cost of racing (entry fee, tires and gas)... thereby voiding any true motivation prizes may have.
09-05-2002, 06:54 PM
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Freek helps make my earlier point:
There's little to fear from the ITS cars. it's gonna come down to the driver to get the job done.
The only wildcard would be the SCCA practice of building hi-buck motors.
there will also be much to learn from them about suspension set-up...this is a good thing.
It would be interesting to know (Freek?) how many cars were fielded by neither PCA nor SCCA drivers. That might be a tough question to answer without seeing signup sheets or the like...
There's little to fear from the ITS cars. it's gonna come down to the driver to get the job done.
The only wildcard would be the SCCA practice of building hi-buck motors.
there will also be much to learn from them about suspension set-up...this is a good thing.
It would be interesting to know (Freek?) how many cars were fielded by neither PCA nor SCCA drivers. That might be a tough question to answer without seeing signup sheets or the like...
09-05-2002, 07:57 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by QUICK'44:
<strong>It would be interesting to know (Freek?) how many cars were fielded by neither PCA nor SCCA drivers. That might be a tough question to answer without seeing signup sheets or the like...</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem with finding this number is that all entrants are required to declare PCA or SCCA eligibility before their first race. The only real way of knowing who has done what is by talking to people in the paddock or via e-mail. I would guesstimate that the number of particpants (as of first 2 rounds) that aren't making the jump from one of the other series at 2.
<strong>It would be interesting to know (Freek?) how many cars were fielded by neither PCA nor SCCA drivers. That might be a tough question to answer without seeing signup sheets or the like...</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem with finding this number is that all entrants are required to declare PCA or SCCA eligibility before their first race. The only real way of knowing who has done what is by talking to people in the paddock or via e-mail. I would guesstimate that the number of particpants (as of first 2 rounds) that aren't making the jump from one of the other series at 2.