jrok

1.) I actually used the word "assist" in my sentence too , and I feel that's perfectly fine, especially when trying to get someone to track-out until there's no more track, which is harder when you're new.

I've had two instances this past year where an instuctor actully grabbed the wheel from my control to make me "stay-out" on a line my car did not like. Both instuctors were not Porsche guys (Mustang Cobra and C4 Vette) and without warning grabbed the wheel and forced me on the track where I did not want to be. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It really bothered me and both times I exercised my right to have them replaced with another instructor.

On the other hand, I've had instructors say "I'm going to show you what I mean" and put two fingers on the wheel and send me all the way to the proper track-out and that is wonderful when you're stuck on one corner because of habit.

I personally feel it was a great courtesy to let me know what to expect.

2.) Rennlist is my church.

Thanks again for your wonderful feedback everyone.

Tony356993

Good point about the wheel "assist" - I do not use it but I will discuss the possibility with the student ahead of time.

Acropora

Lol, you crack me up Glen!

993inNC

I like those although I would disagree with no #6, it should be along the lines of the throttle pedal comment. Brake doesn't mean: slam on the brakes and then let off once you've realized the car is upset and then mull over your screw up only to then have to settle the car, brake, turn , downshift, back to throttle, correct.........only to ask what I think you need to work on at the end of the session <<<<<re-coup from being out of breathe>>>>>.
Hows that for a run on sentence? Who's with me? I know there are a few of you laughing.......you kow just what I mean

993inNC

That's exactly what I do. I don't want to spook you. I think most newer drivers (for some reason) think that they need to "follow" the pavement, and since a turn is a turn......they must turn. I try to start by telling my students (if I find they are the type to follow the pavement), that this is a race track and not street driving and that my goal for them is to get around it, not necessarily follow it. I try early to get them to understand the idea of "use all of the track". Why burn up tires by over input with the wheel, turn in less, track out more.....find the correct steering arch and hold it, don't force more steering than is needed. Thats very hard for people.

RedlineMan

Ha....

I can only think of one universally useful reason to grab the wheel, and that is if you are trying to put it back on the steering column. Perhaps also if the student has geeked and let go of it, still on the column or not.

Anyone who grabs a steering wheel in any other circumstance would not instruct for me, ever again. Extremely poor form. Rude, discourteous, and completely unnecessary. If the student aint getting it, it is not THEIR fault, it is YOURS. You're supposed to be the learned one. Find a better way, Blockhead.

We here in the NE have a perfect example. Turn 6 at Watkins Glen is one of the most difficult turns to get people to trust you in. No matter how much you tell them, they simply do not trust that going that close to the outside wall, that far into a turn, is going to keep them alive.

Try this. "I understand that what I'm telling you does not make sense, and that it makes you completely nervous. Don't worry, NO ONE ever feels comfortable with it 'till they try it and find it works beautifully. Next time by, I am going to place two fingers on the back of your right hand and guide you to the proper turn in point. When I remove my fingers, turn in."

This is a non-invasive way of "suggesting" to them by physical means where you want them to be. It does not wrest control from them, and they can bail if they simply can't stand it. Many times, I've applied fairly heavy pressure to more strongly suggest that they trust me. "Hell...it's my side of the car that will stuff if I'm wrong, eh?" Some do, some pull out of it still, but I NEVER have touched the wheel or grabbed anything.

One of our region members never did a DE again after an instructor grabbed the wheel from her.

Greg Fishman

I have never grabbed the wheel from anyone but I have guided people many times. I tell them way ahead of time, tell them to go slower than normal and assist them so they realize what I want them to do. Sometimes telling someone where to go is much harder than showing/assisting them. Mid Ohio is a great track to do this with and helps your student get the flow much quicker, IMO.

tkerrmd

Thanks guys this thread now is my bible of do's and donts for instructing!!
Jerry good stuff and thanks. Dont think I am at any level to touch the steering wheel of a student. I think I will safely guide him into the pit for a chat if that comes up.

Greg, good list, goes in my instructor book thanks......"butter on a bald monkey!" good visual!!!

Chris, thanking you AGAIN!!!! knew ya had more in ya!!!!

John, keep it coming, I have learned more here than in the Pilot Emeritus Program at this point!!!


To keep on thread...............what type of behavior makes one think, I need to bring this student into the pit for a talk??? How often does that happen??? And should you freely use that? or continue on track with the teaching??? I am ok with the normal stuff, it is the on edge student and situations I am trying to anticpate still...............

You guys are AWESOME thanks for all the info, just raised the IQ of the entire rennlist by 20 points!!

993inNC

"Just when I think I'm out..........................they pull me back in"

My initial gut reaction to your last Q would be that unless the student is being a danger to you two or anyone else on the track, they haven't paid to sit in the pits, let them stay out, but you NEED to find a way to get through to them. You are an instructor......INSTRUCT. Unless someone is a complete retard, everyone can learn, you just need to figure out how (harken back to previous comments about the beginings of your w/e with this new student......all part of your prep work). And keep in mind, if you have given a direct instruction and they are failing to heed your instructions, you are in control, pull their *** into the pits (all the way back to their pad location) and have a nice stern chat with them. At that point its over for the two of you anyway, go find the C.I. and have him yanked (you want to try and avoid but do what you have to do)

I like the P-car club because you mostly get the mature (in mind not age necessarily) croud, who have money, understand value and saftey and are all to willing to defer to someone they feel knows more than they.....thats wy they are there. I wouldn't worry to much about yahoo's.......

mark kibort

I think rule #1, 2, 7 and 9 are the main causes of most beginner spins!

(i know 2 is kind of a joke though)

panic is sometimes a good thing. both feet in can solve 90% of the crashes ive seen. or rule 7 or 9 cause the other 10%

Rule #1: keep the car in control. (meaning you know where its going to go)
if it means driving off line, going in the dirt, or locking the wheels up to slide off the track to a safe area and keep from spinning, then do it.

MK

Greg Fishman

type of behavior that might cause someone to get a talking to in pit lane would include, not letting people pass, trying to pass without a signal. too aggressive of an attitude. Not listening to your instructions, constantly making excuses for not listening to your directions etc.

I have never had to do that with a beginner student but i have had a few intermediate/advanced students (that were compentent) but just didn't want to take any instruction.

Usually they thought they were fast and didn't need dead weight in the passenger seat. Sometimes I could get through to them by taking them for a ride in my race car (9/10ths) and they realize that they aren't all that fast and have somethings to learn, etc. Even better is if I can take them for a couple laps in their car but due to liability I don't do that very often and never ask.

Sometimes they just want to lap and continuing doing what they are doing, I am not going to sit in a car session after session if they are not going to be a student. Too much risk and I certainly don't get my jollies out of riding with them.

tkerrmd

CHRIS.....I knew you wouldnt let me down!! More good stuff, you should write THE book!! thanks for the hundreth time...tom

Greg, good stuff, I guess since I am new to this and someone is cocky and seems to know as much as me I may have a tuff time instructing him?? Just want to do a good job?!

Also concerned about the student who is fairly good insisting on moving up. Not sure how your are really sure they are ready. And even if you are watching from a corner, hate to see my student cause an incident.

Last stupid question and another fear since I am still in instructor therapy is......who's "fault" is it when a student has any kind of incident with an instructor in the car. there is no way I cant feel totally responsible for the incident if I am in the car, or should I??

I have seen several cars hit the wall WITH an instructor in the car. One a close friend of mine. I asked him what happend and if he could have prevented it.. Also did he feel responsible.
He said, well he was going too fast missed the apex spun and hit the tires, **** happens!

Not sure I would be so calm....................

cavlino

Tom, I can give you an answer to one scenario based on how my region handles it. If you are in the car with your student and they get Black flagged, you both go on record to have been Black flagged.

Greg Fishman

As a newbie instructor it is a good idea to realize when you are really not able to help the student. I had several guys in the last year or so that were top notch and there wasn't a lot I could do for them except tell them to go faster I got them a particular instructor (pro driver) that could really help them.

I have been in one car that hit a wall. Beautiful almost new 993TT with a B student. On the fourth or fifth turn I could tell the car wasn't right and I said that he needed to pit, at the only bad spot on the track (heading into Putnam turn 10) the car wouldn't turn and we were heading straight into the wall, fortunately we hit the curbing which caused the car to slide sideways (instead of straight on) into the wall that was lined with haybales. The passenger side tire was flat... I felt bad but certainly not responsible.

tkerrmd

Wow Carm, I didnt know that I will check how it goes down here, thanks.

Greg, I will upgrade my student's instructor from me to someone more experienced if their last name is Penske!!!

And hope no incidents with my students, at least for the first year!!