Willow springs
11-16-2006, 05:15 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by JackOlsen
Going through the POC's program is a great way to learn driving on a race track, but you won't be allowed on the big track until you've earned your short track license, which can take a year to do.
No doubt there are less rigidly structured driving groups than the POC. It is my personal opinion that a rookie on a track for the first time would benefit from the shorter track with slower speeds and similar drivers in his run group. Having to worry about the Evos, Corvettes, Ferraris, and pick up trucks coming up behind you and still concentrate on your driving lessons is a bit to much task loading for most rookies. Taking it one step at a time, with increasing degrees of difficulty and speed would for me seem the most logical approach. Now if you could get the big track all by yourself that would be different...
11-16-2006, 10:38 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by jrgordonsenior
Jack just for clarification....POC requires 4-1 day driving events at Streets with one of those days being the Driver's Clinic. Therefore you can complete the short track licensing requirements in 2 weekends if you plan ahead. The next Driver's Clinic will be at the first short track event of the year at the end of January.
No doubt there are less rigidly structured driving groups than the POC. It is my personal opinion that a rookie on a track for the first time would benefit from the shorter track with slower speeds and similar drivers in his run group. Having to worry about the Evos, Corvettes, Ferraris, and pick up trucks coming up behind you and still concentrate on your driving lessons is a bit to much task loading for most rookies. Taking it one step at a time, with increasing degrees of difficulty and speed would for me seem the most logical approach. Now if you could get the big track all by yourself that would be different...
No doubt there are less rigidly structured driving groups than the POC. It is my personal opinion that a rookie on a track for the first time would benefit from the shorter track with slower speeds and similar drivers in his run group. Having to worry about the Evos, Corvettes, Ferraris, and pick up trucks coming up behind you and still concentrate on your driving lessons is a bit to much task loading for most rookies. Taking it one step at a time, with increasing degrees of difficulty and speed would for me seem the most logical approach. Now if you could get the big track all by yourself that would be different...
11-17-2006, 12:39 AM
#18
Race Car
Don't anybody get me wrong: I agree that POC has the most structured and (arguably) safest way to get people into serious time trialing and racing. Their instruction is second to none and the instructors who go through their eight-hour instructors' seminar come out with a very clear picture of what they're going to be doing and why they're doing it. I did the seminar, and learned a lot.
Oddly, I've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club. My experiences might be too small a data sample to mean anything, but I wonder if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies.
The POC's structured approach is a solid one. I recommend it all the time. And I definitely wish there were more instructors available for the groups I drive with. But the POC way isn't going to be the right fit for every single driver out there. The price of the good instruction and clear rules can be more tightly-packed events and a certain narrowness of focus. If I were a novice driver and my only goal was to do laps on a race track, the STS series might seem like more hassle than it's worth. But if your goal is time trialing and/or club racing, then there's no doubt that the POC runs the best game in town.
Oddly, I've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club. My experiences might be too small a data sample to mean anything, but I wonder if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies.
The POC's structured approach is a solid one. I recommend it all the time. And I definitely wish there were more instructors available for the groups I drive with. But the POC way isn't going to be the right fit for every single driver out there. The price of the good instruction and clear rules can be more tightly-packed events and a certain narrowness of focus. If I were a novice driver and my only goal was to do laps on a race track, the STS series might seem like more hassle than it's worth. But if your goal is time trialing and/or club racing, then there's no doubt that the POC runs the best game in town.
11-17-2006, 11:50 AM
#19
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I go to Willow with the Alfa Romeo Club.
www.AROSC.org.
I will be back at WSIR with them on 1/13 and 1/14 then at Streets for their "Driving School" on 2/3 and 2/4.
www.AROSC.org.
I will be back at WSIR with them on 1/13 and 1/14 then at Streets for their "Driving School" on 2/3 and 2/4.
11-19-2006, 11:06 AM
#20
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You also might try the Performance driving school San Diego region puts on twice a year www.pcasdr.org. Great bang for the buck, Fri. night school / Sat. skid pad, accident avoidance, car control, threshold braking / Sunday AX with excellent instruction and food included! I think it's about 250.00 for everything.
You could always start with an AX anytime (1 per month) with an instructor. All you need is to become a PCA member and your car.
If you've never been on a track this is one way to get a good feel on how your car reacts in different situations.
Jack, I hope you don't drive to WSIR past 100 mph, that's what I'm looking at when I dive on the binders at the Street's straight and I'm SLOWWWW
I'd have to aggree with Jack that POC is the best game in town for DE/Club Racing
You could always start with an AX anytime (1 per month) with an instructor. All you need is to become a PCA member and your car.
If you've never been on a track this is one way to get a good feel on how your car reacts in different situations.
Jack, I hope you don't drive to WSIR past 100 mph, that's what I'm looking at when I dive on the binders at the Street's straight and I'm SLOWWWW
I'd have to aggree with Jack that POC is the best game in town for DE/Club Racing
11-19-2006, 12:06 PM
#21
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Jack Olson I take exception to you recent postings regarding the POC. Your statements are not factual, and can be influential on a rookie trying to decipher all their choices regarding track organizations.
I pointed out initially that it does not take up to a year to progress to the Time Trial series, a statement you made as factual. I politely pointed out that it only takes 2 weekend events, a total of 4 days to procure your short track license and the right to start Time Trialing on the big track.
In you latest post, while singing the praises of the POC ("I agree that POC has the most structured and (arguably) safest way to get people into serious time trialing and racing"), you simultaneously make the statement that "you've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club". You further go on to wonder "if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies".
Well in my 3 years with the POC I've yet to see a car crashed at Streets that couldn't drive home. Certainly the occasional offs, that's to be expected, but carnage, not at all. If you have some specifics I'd like to hear about them. On the other hand, the private track organizations you mention have witnessed some terrible accidents on the big track with rookies experiencing their first track experience. Last year a car with a boyfriend/girlfriend went off into a block wall causing horrific injuries to both. They were only wearing 3 point seat belts and both submarined under them. Well the POC doesn't believe rookies are qualified to run a high speed track like Willow Springs until they had some car control lessons (Streets series), and have minimum standards of safety equipment like roll bars and 5 point harnesses for both seats. None of the clubs you reference require that level of equipment or experience.
You finish by stating that the Street series may be more trouble than it's worth if you're just looking for some track time. I would counter that no one should be one a high speed race track without days of quality instruction first, something the POC does quite well. I've never seen anyone in 3 years who's left the Streets track at the end of a POC event who wasnt completely happy with their experience there. I've never heard one complaint. There's a reason our Streets events are always a sell out (125 cars)....
Jack I recommended Aaron's event (Speedvision) becase I think he runs a great event with instructors for rookies. I don't think the POC is for everyone, some folks just don't respond well to structure, but for a rookie wanting a first time track experience I think it's the smartest and safest.....
I pointed out initially that it does not take up to a year to progress to the Time Trial series, a statement you made as factual. I politely pointed out that it only takes 2 weekend events, a total of 4 days to procure your short track license and the right to start Time Trialing on the big track.
In you latest post, while singing the praises of the POC ("I agree that POC has the most structured and (arguably) safest way to get people into serious time trialing and racing"), you simultaneously make the statement that "you've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club". You further go on to wonder "if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies".
Well in my 3 years with the POC I've yet to see a car crashed at Streets that couldn't drive home. Certainly the occasional offs, that's to be expected, but carnage, not at all. If you have some specifics I'd like to hear about them. On the other hand, the private track organizations you mention have witnessed some terrible accidents on the big track with rookies experiencing their first track experience. Last year a car with a boyfriend/girlfriend went off into a block wall causing horrific injuries to both. They were only wearing 3 point seat belts and both submarined under them. Well the POC doesn't believe rookies are qualified to run a high speed track like Willow Springs until they had some car control lessons (Streets series), and have minimum standards of safety equipment like roll bars and 5 point harnesses for both seats. None of the clubs you reference require that level of equipment or experience.
You finish by stating that the Street series may be more trouble than it's worth if you're just looking for some track time. I would counter that no one should be one a high speed race track without days of quality instruction first, something the POC does quite well. I've never seen anyone in 3 years who's left the Streets track at the end of a POC event who wasnt completely happy with their experience there. I've never heard one complaint. There's a reason our Streets events are always a sell out (125 cars)....
Jack I recommended Aaron's event (Speedvision) becase I think he runs a great event with instructors for rookies. I don't think the POC is for everyone, some folks just don't respond well to structure, but for a rookie wanting a first time track experience I think it's the smartest and safest.....
11-19-2006, 12:38 PM
#22
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Back to Jack....
Jack writes, "There are other groups that are less rigidly structured than the POC. Speedventures is one of them." I don't know how others think, but I want structure at my speed events." At POC Streets, if you are an obvious hazzard to yourself or others, you go home. Also, as John Gordon mentions above, 3 driving days and one school are required, with a sign off from your instructor. Sigh offs are not automatic. If you have not shown the instructor you are capable, you won't get a sign off.
Carnage....I remember almost none with POC at the STS...In 2001, a guy in a RS America, in the process of going off the track at speed, caught an edge in the wet ground and rolled it on its top. It was still driveable, a little worse for the wear. But carnage?
And not being able to go fast, run the course counterclockwise, coming down the hill in a 993 car, I see over 100 mph. I don't generally do 100 mph on the street...too risky. Also remember Jack, we run the back bowl at Streets. This adds about 10+ seconds of driving time per lap. If you have not driven Streets with the Bowl, you have missed a fun experience.
Learn on the Big Track with no previous experience, with stock safety equipment? Not for me....a newby in a 993 or 996 TT car or a GT3 can be hitting 160 by the end of the front straight...this takes no talent, only muscles in the foot. POC won't allow this...there have been requests for the POC to back off on the safety requirements for the Big Tracks...POC will not cave in. We have choosen to "stay the course!" I know I have heard this somewhere else, hmmmm.
Bottom line, once you have graduated from the POS STS series, and you are off to a POC Big Track event, you'll know that the drivers around you have been through a structured training program. They will make fewer bonehead moves than novice drivers who are coming out to a proprietary driving school. That's the way I see it.
Carnage....I remember almost none with POC at the STS...In 2001, a guy in a RS America, in the process of going off the track at speed, caught an edge in the wet ground and rolled it on its top. It was still driveable, a little worse for the wear. But carnage?
And not being able to go fast, run the course counterclockwise, coming down the hill in a 993 car, I see over 100 mph. I don't generally do 100 mph on the street...too risky. Also remember Jack, we run the back bowl at Streets. This adds about 10+ seconds of driving time per lap. If you have not driven Streets with the Bowl, you have missed a fun experience.
Learn on the Big Track with no previous experience, with stock safety equipment? Not for me....a newby in a 993 or 996 TT car or a GT3 can be hitting 160 by the end of the front straight...this takes no talent, only muscles in the foot. POC won't allow this...there have been requests for the POC to back off on the safety requirements for the Big Tracks...POC will not cave in. We have choosen to "stay the course!" I know I have heard this somewhere else, hmmmm.
Bottom line, once you have graduated from the POS STS series, and you are off to a POC Big Track event, you'll know that the drivers around you have been through a structured training program. They will make fewer bonehead moves than novice drivers who are coming out to a proprietary driving school. That's the way I see it.
11-19-2006, 01:03 PM
#23
Race Car
Guys, let me apologize if my post created the impression that I thought POC events were in any way unsafe. I don't believe that at all. I thought I was pretty clear in saying that it's a well-thought-out program, and probably the safest way for a novice driver to get out on the track.
11-19-2006, 08:00 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by earlyapex
Yes, I forgot that the some of the SoCal PCA regions run DE's. They are also a very good to run with and to get great instruction.
The Time trial series usually puts on about 6 events a year at these tracks:
California Speedway
Willow Spring International Raceway
Willow Springs - Streets of Willow
Buttonwillow
Spring Mountain - Pahrump, NV
It is a good series with plenty of track time, good instructors and is not crowded on the track for some good flying laps.
I agrre with Martin and John, newbie's need instruction on a slower track until they can handle a car under various circumstances. To not have that skill is asking for trouble for sure!!
11-20-2006, 12:06 AM
#25
Originally Posted by jrgordonsenior
Jack Olson I take exception to you recent postings regarding the POC. Your statements are not factual, and can be influential on a rookie trying to decipher all their choices regarding track organizations.
"you've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club". You further go on to wonder "if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies".
Well the POC doesn't believe rookies are qualified to run a high speed track like Willow Springs until they had some car control lessons (Streets series), and have minimum standards of safety equipment like roll bars and 5 point harnesses for both seats. None of the clubs you reference require that level of equipment or experience.
Jack I recommended Aaron's event (Speedvision) becase I think he runs a great event with instructors for rookies. I don't think the POC is for everyone, some folks just don't respond well to structure, but for a rookie wanting a first time track experience I think it's the smartest and safest.....
"you've seen more carnage at POC events on the Streets course than I have at the big track with groups like Speedventures, Open Track Racing or the Alfa Romeo Club". You further go on to wonder "if the POC's focus on classification and timing, right from the beginning, engenders a more competitive mindset, even for the newbies".
Well the POC doesn't believe rookies are qualified to run a high speed track like Willow Springs until they had some car control lessons (Streets series), and have minimum standards of safety equipment like roll bars and 5 point harnesses for both seats. None of the clubs you reference require that level of equipment or experience.
Jack I recommended Aaron's event (Speedvision) becase I think he runs a great event with instructors for rookies. I don't think the POC is for everyone, some folks just don't respond well to structure, but for a rookie wanting a first time track experience I think it's the smartest and safest.....
I'm a rookie racer and run with all kinds of clubs racing and doing DE's. I see it the way jack sees it. If you like Speed Ventures you can't have fault with few others especially Alfa Romeo. The clubs I have been with in So Cal all run like Speed Ventures. Alfa Romeo runs twice a year dedicated school o the streets as performance driving mostly for DE's, Time trial and race school. Their track events are time trial and race group with safety requirements as to car equipment much like POC. Time trialers roll bar etc.. etc.., racers full gear full cage nomex etc... etc... Alfa is very layed back in competition until the higher levels and race group. When you do an Alfa race you do non-contact battle and finish an Alfa race all friends. Alfa Romeo is as much about being friends and having fun as it is about going fast. That said I have never been on a track with a POC'er who drove like a bonehead. POC'ers learn good track maners early. POC imo is on to something. Street cars are so fast that you only need a fat wallet and one leg to go 150mph on the front straight. 10 years ago that was 120, and 20 years ago that was maybe 100mph.
11-20-2006, 02:06 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Ok, I've finally read through all of the information and really appreciate all of the resposes. I looked though through the POC information and was wondering if there was a check list or what I require on the car. I read in one of the pdf files and it was talking about 5/6 point harnesses, are they required? I hope I'm over in the area on the 5th. I'd enjoy meeting you guys.
I'd probably hang out with Brad since he's in the same boat. (The one guy from the thread on the POC discussion board...)
On another note.
My wife is getting worried the more I explain what I'm doing on these sites. She liked the car for the name and status...I've wanted one for the performance and wanted to learn how to use it to it's fullest. I think she'll turn around and end up getting into the club racing before I do...Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Thanks again..
I'd probably hang out with Brad since he's in the same boat. (The one guy from the thread on the POC discussion board...)
On another note.
My wife is getting worried the more I explain what I'm doing on these sites. She liked the car for the name and status...I've wanted one for the performance and wanted to learn how to use it to it's fullest. I think she'll turn around and end up getting into the club racing before I do...Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Thanks again..
11-20-2006, 02:24 AM
#27
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We have blocked out a few weekdays at big willow next year .. email me for more info..
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11-20-2006, 08:44 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by Eharrison
Ok, I've finally read through all of the information and really appreciate all of the resposes. I looked though through the POC information and was wondering if there was a check list or what I require on the car. I read in one of the pdf files and it was talking about 5/6 point harnesses, are they required?
Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Shirley? The Pink Lady?.....
11-20-2006, 12:30 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by Eharrison
On another note.
My wife is getting worried the more I explain what I'm doing on these sites. She liked the car for the name and status...I've wanted one for the performance and wanted to learn how to use it to it's fullest. I think she'll turn around and end up getting into the club racing before I do...Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Thanks again..
My wife is getting worried the more I explain what I'm doing on these sites. She liked the car for the name and status...I've wanted one for the performance and wanted to learn how to use it to it's fullest. I think she'll turn around and end up getting into the club racing before I do...Her mom was a drag racer....(Don't ask.)
Thanks again..
This is exactly what I did with my wife 2 years ago - we shared our GT3. She was hooked and this year she ran the entire season and won the NP class in STS. She loves the people in the POC and has as much fun hanging around the pits as she does driving on the track. Certainly being able to share this experience with her has made my whole oddessy from street canyon running to rookie Cup racer more rewarding. We continue to share the street car at STS events are very much looking forward to next year.
-Kevin
12-05-2006, 02:12 AM
#30
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I hope you guys had fun. I ended up a couple of miles from the Willow Springs track on Monday, and didn't get here early enough. Maybe next time I'll inquire once I know I'm coming back to this neck of the woods.