Professional Racing versus Club Racing – open discussion
11-10-2006, 05:57 PM
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Professional Racing versus Club Racing – open discussion
More specifically, let’s discuss incidents involving car contact between two cars.
In Pro racing, it is my understanding that car contact is part of racing, even the calculated strategy of a racer attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a race. To quote the tired old cliché of NastyCar “rubbin is racin”. It is a common occurrence where consequences are rarely imposed upon the perpetrator.
In Porsche Club Racing, I have been mentored into the understanding that this is “gentlemen racing”, in which one is to avoid contact with other cars. Even to avoid contact at the expense of prematurely ending one’s own current race, or even the race weekend. However, on any given Club Race weekend, there are the inevitable incidents in which a “13” violation occurs. This also leads to a more significant problem, in which innocent drivers and/or their cars are damaged or destroyed with no consequence to the person at fault in the incident.
Now, one might argue that the “13” rule provides some measure of accountability in that a person loses the money they invested in their track weekend when involved in a car contact incident. However, in my personal observations, this potential loss seems to provide little incentive for some to avoid incidents such as these as they seem to occur on a regular basis.
Another observation. There are many facilities that require the person at fault in an incident to pay for repairs to their property that occur when damaged by a participant. It’s amazing to me there are no such rules within Club Racing that cover damage to another car in a similar manner.
To summarize my point, it is my understanding that Professional racing and Club racing are different in that in Club racing, car contact should not be a common occurrence, and should be avoided by all means necessary (including returning to the track safely when having gone 4-wheels off). The current incentives to avoid contact do not appear to work. Therefore, shouldn’t there be more of a consequence for damaging someone else’s property?
As they would say on Coffee Talk with Linda Richman “Liability for car contact incidents in Club Racing as opposed to Professional Racing. Discuss”
In Pro racing, it is my understanding that car contact is part of racing, even the calculated strategy of a racer attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a race. To quote the tired old cliché of NastyCar “rubbin is racin”. It is a common occurrence where consequences are rarely imposed upon the perpetrator.
In Porsche Club Racing, I have been mentored into the understanding that this is “gentlemen racing”, in which one is to avoid contact with other cars. Even to avoid contact at the expense of prematurely ending one’s own current race, or even the race weekend. However, on any given Club Race weekend, there are the inevitable incidents in which a “13” violation occurs. This also leads to a more significant problem, in which innocent drivers and/or their cars are damaged or destroyed with no consequence to the person at fault in the incident.
Now, one might argue that the “13” rule provides some measure of accountability in that a person loses the money they invested in their track weekend when involved in a car contact incident. However, in my personal observations, this potential loss seems to provide little incentive for some to avoid incidents such as these as they seem to occur on a regular basis.
Another observation. There are many facilities that require the person at fault in an incident to pay for repairs to their property that occur when damaged by a participant. It’s amazing to me there are no such rules within Club Racing that cover damage to another car in a similar manner.
To summarize my point, it is my understanding that Professional racing and Club racing are different in that in Club racing, car contact should not be a common occurrence, and should be avoided by all means necessary (including returning to the track safely when having gone 4-wheels off). The current incentives to avoid contact do not appear to work. Therefore, shouldn’t there be more of a consequence for damaging someone else’s property?
As they would say on Coffee Talk with Linda Richman “Liability for car contact incidents in Club Racing as opposed to Professional Racing. Discuss”
11-10-2006, 06:30 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
The only methods of fault-finding are eye witness accounts, videos, and ultimately, the subjective opinion of the officials. Making people submit some kind of deposit, credit check, or agreement to pay for whatever they *might* do to someone else's $75K masterpiece, based on the subjective opinion of officials, will NEVER fly.
If you don't think the officials are being hard enough on some individuals, you (and everyone else who agrees with you) should bring the offenders to their attention. The officials want a good clean race as much as you do, so if they get a few complaints about a specific competitor, they *should* keep a close eye on that person and deal with them accordingly - perhaps more harshly in some cases. I know of a SM competitor out here that is about to get his competition license revoked for on-track antics, and believe me, that's pretty bad in SM. Any race organization, including PCA, reserves the right to refuse service to anyone - so if there are some real problem-makers, they should probably set an example and hand out a lifetime ban or two. That would probably straighten folks out.
(edit)
It's also entirely possible that your definition of acceptable contact and your local club's definition are not the same. In that case you're out of luck and have to accept the risks.
If you don't think the officials are being hard enough on some individuals, you (and everyone else who agrees with you) should bring the offenders to their attention. The officials want a good clean race as much as you do, so if they get a few complaints about a specific competitor, they *should* keep a close eye on that person and deal with them accordingly - perhaps more harshly in some cases. I know of a SM competitor out here that is about to get his competition license revoked for on-track antics, and believe me, that's pretty bad in SM. Any race organization, including PCA, reserves the right to refuse service to anyone - so if there are some real problem-makers, they should probably set an example and hand out a lifetime ban or two. That would probably straighten folks out.
(edit)
It's also entirely possible that your definition of acceptable contact and your local club's definition are not the same. In that case you're out of luck and have to accept the risks.
Last edited by chancecasey; 11-10-2006 at 08:10 PM.
11-10-2006, 07:04 PM
#4
Race Director
I know you don't like my view of this subject. I'm really NOT trying to be any more harsh than the cold reality however.
Racing is "no fault." Period. Club racing or pro.
When I say you should expect to be hit and have damage, etc., that does NOT mean I condone it. But you should expect it. It's racing and it happens. Period.
As for assigning blame, all too often it's just impossible. There are stupid people on the track unfortunately and we do end up racing with them sometimes. It's all part of the game.
Racing is "no fault." Period. Club racing or pro.
When I say you should expect to be hit and have damage, etc., that does NOT mean I condone it. But you should expect it. It's racing and it happens. Period.
As for assigning blame, all too often it's just impossible. There are stupid people on the track unfortunately and we do end up racing with them sometimes. It's all part of the game.
11-10-2006, 08:51 PM
#5
If you can't stomach (or afford) your baby being crushed by an idiot, don't take it on the track. The words '"liability" and "race-track" don't belong in the same sentence. Racing = driving your car at or over its limit of adhesion in close proximity to others doing the same. Contact will occur on occasion despite the best efforts at preventing it.
11-10-2006, 09:03 PM
#6
I agree with Geo and prg a lot, stuff happens on the race track, weather someone is at fault or not. At the speeds cars are traveling, the various skill levels, and at the rate some is pushing those speeds. Accidents are bound to happen. However, i think you should have a "margin of error" just in case.
but bottom line is, know full well at ANY time your nice looking race car can go home as a twisted ball of metal.
but bottom line is, know full well at ANY time your nice looking race car can go home as a twisted ball of metal.
11-10-2006, 09:13 PM
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I realize that racing at any level involve risks. PRG your definition of racing is quite fitting and obviously contacts are part of racing.
But I somehow feel that Club racing should not be on the same pane as Professional racing.
Maybe I am a bit naive, or too old school but PCA racing started as a way to get our Porsches street cars into something more competitive than DEs (that are actually Driving Education events).
I feel that the original spirit of PCA racing, that gentlemen racing concept gman mentioned is a bit lost nowadays.
Nobody (with a few exceptions) drives their race cars to the venue. People have these huge trailers that have enough spares to build a second car.
I have nothing against that but sometimes it seems a little much when you don't even get a cap for a podium finish.
I think the mentality of winning at all costs id a bit out of character for Club racing. And the competitivness and huge egos of some partecipants are what are making me nervous about w2w racing.
I have no problems in my mind in accepting an accident and the fact that my car could be written off at any time. But I am not sure I am prepared to risk it all (and not just my $100k car) because someone just needs to lift that trophy.
Maybe I am out of line and and possibly I am the odd one out but right now I am not prepared for this type of racing...
But I somehow feel that Club racing should not be on the same pane as Professional racing.
Maybe I am a bit naive, or too old school but PCA racing started as a way to get our Porsches street cars into something more competitive than DEs (that are actually Driving Education events).
I feel that the original spirit of PCA racing, that gentlemen racing concept gman mentioned is a bit lost nowadays.
Nobody (with a few exceptions) drives their race cars to the venue. People have these huge trailers that have enough spares to build a second car.
I have nothing against that but sometimes it seems a little much when you don't even get a cap for a podium finish.
I think the mentality of winning at all costs id a bit out of character for Club racing. And the competitivness and huge egos of some partecipants are what are making me nervous about w2w racing.
I have no problems in my mind in accepting an accident and the fact that my car could be written off at any time. But I am not sure I am prepared to risk it all (and not just my $100k car) because someone just needs to lift that trophy.
Maybe I am out of line and and possibly I am the odd one out but right now I am not prepared for this type of racing...
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11-10-2006, 10:29 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by gman1868
More specifically, let’s discuss incidents involving car contact between two cars.
In Pro racing, it is my understanding that car contact is part of racing, even the calculated strategy of a racer attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a race. To quote the tired old cliché of NastyCar “rubbin is racin”. It is a common occurrence where consequences are rarely imposed upon the perpetrator.
In Porsche Club Racing, I have been mentored into the understanding that this is “gentlemen racing”, in which one is to avoid contact with other cars. Even to avoid contact at the expense of prematurely ending one’s own current race, or even the race weekend. However, on any given Club Race weekend, there are the inevitable incidents in which a “13” violation occurs. This also leads to a more significant problem, in which innocent drivers and/or their cars are damaged or destroyed with no consequence to the person at fault in the incident.
Now, one might argue that the “13” rule provides some measure of accountability in that a person loses the money they invested in their track weekend when involved in a car contact incident. However, in my personal observations, this potential loss seems to provide little incentive for some to avoid incidents such as these as they seem to occur on a regular basis.
Another observation. There are many facilities that require the person at fault in an incident to pay for repairs to their property that occur when damaged by a participant. It’s amazing to me there are no such rules within Club Racing that cover damage to another car in a similar manner.
To summarize my point, it is my understanding that Professional racing and Club racing are different in that in Club racing, car contact should not be a common occurrence, and should be avoided by all means necessary (including returning to the track safely when having gone 4-wheels off). The current incentives to avoid contact do not appear to work. Therefore, shouldn’t there be more of a consequence for damaging someone else’s property?
As they would say on Coffee Talk with Linda Richman “Liability for car contact incidents in Club Racing as opposed to Professional Racing. Discuss”
In Pro racing, it is my understanding that car contact is part of racing, even the calculated strategy of a racer attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a race. To quote the tired old cliché of NastyCar “rubbin is racin”. It is a common occurrence where consequences are rarely imposed upon the perpetrator.
In Porsche Club Racing, I have been mentored into the understanding that this is “gentlemen racing”, in which one is to avoid contact with other cars. Even to avoid contact at the expense of prematurely ending one’s own current race, or even the race weekend. However, on any given Club Race weekend, there are the inevitable incidents in which a “13” violation occurs. This also leads to a more significant problem, in which innocent drivers and/or their cars are damaged or destroyed with no consequence to the person at fault in the incident.
Now, one might argue that the “13” rule provides some measure of accountability in that a person loses the money they invested in their track weekend when involved in a car contact incident. However, in my personal observations, this potential loss seems to provide little incentive for some to avoid incidents such as these as they seem to occur on a regular basis.
Another observation. There are many facilities that require the person at fault in an incident to pay for repairs to their property that occur when damaged by a participant. It’s amazing to me there are no such rules within Club Racing that cover damage to another car in a similar manner.
To summarize my point, it is my understanding that Professional racing and Club racing are different in that in Club racing, car contact should not be a common occurrence, and should be avoided by all means necessary (including returning to the track safely when having gone 4-wheels off). The current incentives to avoid contact do not appear to work. Therefore, shouldn’t there be more of a consequence for damaging someone else’s property?
As they would say on Coffee Talk with Linda Richman “Liability for car contact incidents in Club Racing as opposed to Professional Racing. Discuss”
On a practical level how do you propose that someone enforce the rules you present? If say I choose to race a 944 NA that is worth a few thousand dollars and other people on the track have $100k in their cars, why am I responsible for the value of their car, and how are you going to collect if it comes to that?
Basically I think you are being ridiculous and you either need to take your self off the track and find another hobby or accept the risk.
Did you have an incident that lead to this line of thinking? Seems like some sour grapes, IMO....
Last edited by Greg Fishman; 11-10-2006 at 10:50 PM.
11-11-2006, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Do you race? Because it seems as if your attitude is that if someone wrecks you they are responsible. I don't know any racers who would expect that at any level pro or club. I have heard of a couple incidents where the person at fault makes the situation good by admitting fault and repairing damage. But it is never expected. And if you are willing to put your car in the wall to avoid touching another racer then you are not thinking correctly. Sometimes avoiding slight contact can result in more damage and a more serious accident than light contact, this is the issue with 13/13 racing IMO.
On a practical level how do you propose that someone enforce the rules you present? If say I choose to race a 944 NA that is worth a few thousand dollars and other people on the track have $100k in their cars, why am I responsible for the value of their car, and how are you going to collect if it comes to that?
Basically I think you are being ridiculous and you either need to take your self off the track and find another hobby or accept the risk.
Did you have an incident that lead to this line of thinking? Seems like some sour grapes, IMO....
On a practical level how do you propose that someone enforce the rules you present? If say I choose to race a 944 NA that is worth a few thousand dollars and other people on the track have $100k in their cars, why am I responsible for the value of their car, and how are you going to collect if it comes to that?
Basically I think you are being ridiculous and you either need to take your self off the track and find another hobby or accept the risk.
Did you have an incident that lead to this line of thinking? Seems like some sour grapes, IMO....
I digress.
At the '05 Club Race at Road America, during the Sprint race, another racer moved over in the braking zone at Canada Corner and grenaded his brakes in front of me (he’d been blocking me and another car for a couple laps as well). I had a choice, punt him, or drive into the gravel trap. I chose the trap, which saved both his car and mine from damage, but cut my one race of the weekend short.
If I understand what you’re saying, had I just gone ahead and punted him off and wrecked his car that would have been no big deal. I think I made the better decision. Is it ridiculous to expect others to make a similar decision?
Moving on…
This past summer my car it was totaled in a Club race because someone made a very bad error in judgement. Then, in the very next race group, another racer made a very bad error in judgement, destroyed another racer's car AND sent him to the hospital.
Too bad, so sad, is that what you're saying? Just part of racing? Is the spirit of Club Racing no different than Nascar?
I merely pose a question. What type of incentive could there be to influence people to make better decisions on the track? Is it possible, or not? If not, that is truly sad.
11-11-2006, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce P
poop happens!!! The day we start entertaining the idea of compensation for damage that happens in track incidents is the day we start to kill club racing.
Bruce
I don't think it's "poop happens"
I think it's "hits happens".
If you're racing that's a distinct possibility...
11-11-2006, 07:26 AM
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that this thread ever got started horrifies me. The day you step in a race car you should write off what ever it cost you.
Racing is a contact sport, 'racing incidents' occur. If some fwit smashes your car and you feel really bad about it, amuse everybody else and chase him round the paddock until you can catch with your handbag.
R+C
Racing is a contact sport, 'racing incidents' occur. If some fwit smashes your car and you feel really bad about it, amuse everybody else and chase him round the paddock until you can catch with your handbag.
R+C
11-11-2006, 08:55 AM
#15
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Sorry to hear about those incidents, less so for gman's loss (see the pile-on notes above), and more for the guy that got sent to the hospital. gman's post is asking about financial compensation, which everyone disagrees with, including me. Maybe he shouldn't have seeded the discussion with that suggestion. If we take that off the table, we could consider whether or not there should be additional consequences for track contact when someone does something really stupid. Maybe the whole concept is dumb, but maybe not.
For example, could there be and additional level of penalty for something like "gross negligence"? Retain the current 13/13 for "normal" incidents, but if video, witnesses, etc prove that the "offender" did something really stupid, maybe he should be instantly banned for 13 months, or 24 months. One problem with this scenario would be the reluctance to assign such a term ("gross negligence") to an incident due to our legal system and the ensuing mess that could result from such a ruling. So maybe there's abother racing-specific term that could be used that wouldn't have legal implications. Another problem could be that the line between "normal" incidents and "really stupid" actions can be extremely subjective. A suggestion here would be that someone (maybe limited to those involved in the incident) would need to formally petition for an incident to be considered for the greater penalty. If nobody petitions, then current rules apply.
Another idea would be to have the gross offender sit out for some period of time AND volunteer at an event or two. A third idea would be to have the gross offender speak at a rookie meeting about the incident or about the importance of track safety and awareness. Lastly, how about a requirement that the gross offender attend some school, like skippy or other.
I don't necessarily have a problem with the current rules. However, if there are really stupid things happening out there in PCA Club Racing, maybe something more than a a 13/13 should be imposed. Maybe not.
For example, could there be and additional level of penalty for something like "gross negligence"? Retain the current 13/13 for "normal" incidents, but if video, witnesses, etc prove that the "offender" did something really stupid, maybe he should be instantly banned for 13 months, or 24 months. One problem with this scenario would be the reluctance to assign such a term ("gross negligence") to an incident due to our legal system and the ensuing mess that could result from such a ruling. So maybe there's abother racing-specific term that could be used that wouldn't have legal implications. Another problem could be that the line between "normal" incidents and "really stupid" actions can be extremely subjective. A suggestion here would be that someone (maybe limited to those involved in the incident) would need to formally petition for an incident to be considered for the greater penalty. If nobody petitions, then current rules apply.
Another idea would be to have the gross offender sit out for some period of time AND volunteer at an event or two. A third idea would be to have the gross offender speak at a rookie meeting about the incident or about the importance of track safety and awareness. Lastly, how about a requirement that the gross offender attend some school, like skippy or other.
I don't necessarily have a problem with the current rules. However, if there are really stupid things happening out there in PCA Club Racing, maybe something more than a a 13/13 should be imposed. Maybe not.