actually, i just found this out at the last SCCA event where a friend of mine was involved in a "racing" incident. personally, i viewed it as his fault, but even the driver with the most damage, viewed it as just a bad situation.
SCCA, which has more cars on the track racing than ANY other racing organization by a long shot, doesnt have the 13/13 rule, however,its amazing how little happends on a race weekend. So, what i found out was, if someone does a bone head move and makes contact with another car, there is financial assosiated with the responsibility of the incident if a driver is determined to be at fault. I dont think its related to the cost of the type of car, but to the type of damaged. (generic for all cars, kind of like a fine).

so, the fact that they are making drivers responsible to a certain extent for their actions, is a good thing. I certainly think PCA could benefit by such a rule. we are out there having fun, its not PRO racing. so, there really is no excuse for loosing control of your car during club racing, nor, making low percentage moves that end up in damage to other innocent victims. Sure, most accidents we see in the SCCA races are those of circumstances. spec miata races with 80 cars are going to bump, but ITE races with 60cars and a disparity of power and performance, will spread out more (like PCA races) and its rare for there to be anything more than minor contact over a weekend.

I think if the financial threat of financial responsibility for a new racer with a high powered car was present, they may back off a notch and not be as reckless. I race a car that is irreplacable. if anything serious happened to it, i would be seriously upset. The alternative is to put it in a garage and look at it. (nahh) so, its got to race, so i try to run 10/10s and I dont get over my head too often. I pass cars with the expectation that they dont see unless i see a point by. when being passed or in a battle i just cant win, i try to make it easy for both of us to change positions with the least amount of lap time effect.

these are things we all know, but somehow, we tend to forget in the heat of the battle. The close battles are great. play fair and make your intentions known, and both you and the guy behind or ahead of you will have a great safe time. pull a fast one, overdrive, and it may come back to bite you in the nose, tail or door!

Mk



the criteria is pretty straight forward

 

Here's my $.02 on the 13/13 rule; it prevents deliberate contact, and can help to reduce the nuymber of risky aggressive moves that could result in contact. It will never prevent accidents, or eliminate stupid behavior. Accidents are just that, accidents, and drivers who commit bonehead maneuvers, whether from temporary brain fade or innate lack of intelligence will not be thinking about the rules or the consequences at that moment. It is an effort to reduce the amount of car-to-car contact. For that reason only, I think that it does work as compared to other series where it seems like a lot of cars need constant bodywork.

FWIW I have found that the driving is usually cleaner in the lower classes where the drivers own and build/maintain their own cars. It is in the "buy a racecar, rent a racecar" classes that too many drivers seem to crash, and then call for the backup car. It could be that these classes draw the drivers with more money than talent.

 

Yeah, what he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

You ALWAYS say that!

 

Funny how that works, isn't it?

 

Anyone who is thinking of moving from DE to club racing should watch this video. Very enlightening!

Ben

 

Yup, I agree.

I'd also like to add on to some other comments in this thread. I have sporadically competed in World Challenge & Grand Am Cup, as well as various Club-level races (both specific car club & SCCA). While not the most experience racer in the world, I have had enough varied experiences to draw some conclusions:

--in the pro ranks, contrary to popular view, it is not usually the lower-skilled renter driver with the fat checkbook who is responsible for most fo the avoidable incidents; sure, they are involved in some, and you gradually learn to keep clear of these couple of folks; but rather, most of the club-level guys who take a stab at the pros (and I was one) tend to drive their own race & stay out of trouble to avoid writing the BIG check; many of them are unfamiliar with many pro tracks, and take it relatively easy; instead, it is often (in my experiences) a couple of experienced talented racers who tend to cause the vast majority of the wrecks race after race; sure, they sometimes have big wallets, but the common factor is more that they have a lot of talent but very poor mental processes & patience; they are like bulls in china shops, and if you look for patterns like i do, you can see that they represent the 80/20 rule (the same 20% of the racers are responsible for 80% of the wrecks every single race)

--in the SCCA ranks, there is contact, but (IMO) anything beyond bump drafting & light fender rubbing is usually only the province of the truly clueless; I had the pleasure to share a Spec Racer Ford (my first time ever in that type of car) last fall in a 6 hour SCCA enduro with its owner, who is a good friend; we were out there with a bunch of Spec Miatas as well--quite a large field of both types of cars; SRF's are faster that SM's, and so there was quite a bit of passing; and it was always--ALWAYS--the relatively clueless newer SM drivers who would do stupid **** while being passed, primarily because they were oblivious to the presence of an SRF passing them; the experienced guys were totally predictable, and totally aware of us coming up on them; BTW, until out car broke in hour 5, that was THE most fun I have ever had racing any car, period!

--in the Club ranks, I see a lot moe carnage in PCA events than BMW events, for example; I am not sure why; it may be as others have said--the $ factor; but generally, it is my observation that, again, it is the relatively clueless boneheads who are not predictable & do stupid ****, causing most incidents

 

Been away for a few days...just catching up...but a big "HUH ???" to this:

Scratching my head over this, Mark. Never heard of this at all, and don't know of any specifics in the SCCA GCR that could support this.

More details, please ?

 

If I had to pay for the other driver's car I would not race at all. I race a low cost 944 because that is what I am willing to risk on the track. I don't like contact and don't feel that you need to touch any other car to have a good race. My first desire on track in practice or a race is to protect the car. This means prevent contact with other cars or objects. I race as hard as I can and as close as I can, but would rather spin off in the grass or sand trap than contact another car. The issue is you also need to realize that sometimes a slight touch on another car may save you from big off. Thankfully I have never had to make that choice.


If you want to make racing cleaner apply more pentalies. These should not be financial since $1000 to one guy may be pocket change, but 2 event's racing budget for someone else. The fairest way to apply penalties is black flag, DQ's or exclusions. Lattitide should be given for "racing errors" vs "bonehead" moves, but even then it is not always clear.

In the end however racing at the club level just like at the pros is on you nickle. Expect nobody to pay to fix your car other than you. If you can't handle the $$$$ then don't race that car. Find something cheaper. If you can't handle the risk at all then don't race.

 

Interesting the comment about video sometimes is not proof, but I have witnessed this first hand from a noncontact DE incident. Driver in a HP vette wanted a late pass into T1 at the glen in July, so I gave it to him. He was on full race slicks and I expected him to stay offline since I was stacked behind a slower car with no pass signal. Instead he came over into the line up into my wheel, I had to farm a little and had a really good look at the blue bushes. No harm, but I ended up talking to him after the session as I found it way too aggressive considering it was just lapping. His response was an emphatic "no way". I offered video since my DVR was running. That was 4 months ago. I was over it the moment I turned in and then again after a useless conversation in the paddock. Yet just two days ago he approached me at another event to plead his case as not at fault. I looked at him and just said, "get over it "(with a laugh). I agree with Colin, sh*t happens and we all can make a mistake.

Driver perspective can very different: Gordon hit a guy in Nascar this last event during a restart. Video showed contact but two arguments ensued: Gordon-----"Car in front missed a gear or did not see the green flag". Edwards ----"Car behind lifted my back end and I could not get on the gas". Who was at fault? dunno, that's just racing.....................

 

Me either. In 2004 I raced my pca class gt3r in SCCA ITE. I was punted into a wall on the main straight at Thunderhill(NorCAl) and my car was totaled. All I got was a '"sorry dude". No financial assistance.

 

What I'm hearing a number of you saying is this:

In (insert Pro racing series here), car contact incidents are "just part of racing". I agree with you 100%. However, with no points or money at stake, shouldn't PCA Club Racing be different?

I'm still wondering, what is your response on whether or not you think it's viable to have a more stringent program in regards to getting one's racing license? What do other organizations do?

In regards to graduated penalties based upon the situation, I'm conflicted. I agree that if the rules were more consistently enforced, there would be both a deterrence against incidents and people would also be weeded out of the system quicker as a result. However, as a few of us have mentioned, we see the carnage on a regular basis at Club Race events. This leads me to believe there needs to be more strict rules in an attempt to reduce car contact incidents.

I understand there isn't a simple black and white answer. I also understand that this may not be a subject which the governing body of Club Racing is interested in discussing, for similar reasons they aren't interested in rules that help control the costs of racing.

I am very grateful for the racing community and their empathy toward me and my plight. I guess I never really believed something like this would really happen (bent sheet metal, sure, but to have my car destroyed?). If it weren't for the willingness of my fellow Nordstern region members to help me out I would have already written off the whole idea of racing.

Thank you to all of you who have provided constructive feedback. I have quite a bit to think about over the next couple of years as I try to get my car back together.

 

1) I still don't believe any club racer should be held to any financial liablity.(I'm on my second car as my first was totaled at my third race in 2004. Back in 2004, I was punted into a wall by a driver making a pass on me down the main straight. He got right on my bumper...for a tow I guess, and cliped me as he pulled out to pass. I was pissd for sure, but didn't expect any financial restitiution.)

2) Absolutely. Most people can simply attend an SCCA weekend, get licensed and race the next weekend. I believe the POC has the best program for bringing on new racers. PCA should model their program.

 

It is different! There is a 13/13 rule for one. But no matter how you slice and dice it there will always be incidents.

Do you care to go into how your car was destroyed? I didn't realize this early on and can understand how it affects your thinking now, but if you never accepted the fact your car could be gone in an instant while racing then I think you were living in a dream world. I raced my 993 for almost 5 years with zero contact. Some of it was by luck, other times because I knew when and where to push my luck. The other reason is that I raced in C where there are a relatively few cars compared to F and the cars are probably cost close to as much to build as a Cup Car. Most of the guys I raced against/with respected each other to a high degree. I can name about 5 guys in C that I would and did race side by side with no issues.

 

Forgive me again for being blunt. I'm NOT trying to be rude. However... I think you're hearing what you want to hear (and I certainly understand why).

What most of us are saying is that we don't condone contact or think it should be part of racing at the club level (I don't think it belongs at the pro level either, but that's just me). What we are saying is that it is an inevitable part of putting your car on a race track. You may escape w/o destroying your car through 1,000 races or yours could be destroyed your first race through no fault of your own.

Incidents happen on a race track both intentional and unintentional. Some drivers have a hard time seeing since they have their Bell firmly up their poop shoot. There is absolutely nothing you can do to eliminate the boneheads and squirrels. And then, occasionally someone you trust will stuff their Bell where the sun don't shine and out of the blue your car is in a ball. When I was racing karts I watched someone I would have trusted to run wheel to wheel with anytime suddenly lose his brain, cut across the grass (way inside pass I guess) and t-bone someone else I'd run with any day of the week and send him flying 25-30' into a tree contacting it about 4' off the ground and breaking his collar bone. The point being is that even the best drivers have their brains fall out of their Bells sometimes.

I do seriously feel for you. But in racing, everybody is a potential Bluto (Animal House - trash your car and just say "Oh.... sorry" - if that).

For my part I will only repeat what I said before. I think the only solution is a black flag to enforce rules currently on the books. The Chief Stew or Clerk of the Course needs to grow a pair and put a stop to it. The challenge is that it has to start in the pro ranks and there nobody seems to truly care. As long as it happens in the pro ranks there will be amateurs (even "gentlemen racers") who feel that is the way things are done I'm afraid. I wish it weren't so.

I've been following racing since I was about 7 or 8 when my mother would bring home C&D and R&T from the waiting room of the doctor she worked for and I would read them cover to cover. I grew up believing contact is something to be avoided as truly NOT COOL. When I started racing karts 20 years ago they didn't have full length nerf bars on the side let alone all the body work. You just simply didn't wantonly make contact with folks. I hear it's pretty common today. Sad. I have made contact with people in the years I've been racing but all but one occurence (which was minor but I'm still embarrassed about) was truly incidental racing contact that happens from time to time, but it's rare. More often than not I've raced within an inch or two of someone in karts cleanly or a foot or two in cars cleanly (never had contact in cars - touch wood).

I cannot say I have not been contacted and dropped kicked by others however. One ******* used me and my kart for his braking zone and he literally ended up on my head (all 325lbs of kart and driver). Maybe that explains a few things. Oddly enough my lawyer (he and his son took me under their wing when I started in karts) was flagging at the hairpin where this occurred. This normally mild-mannered man lit into this guy like a sailor from what I heard. The concussion was not fun. For 4 weeks I felt drunk AND hung over at the same time and was wondering if I'd ever recover. Fortunately I did start recovering in week 5 but that's another story. My boss asked me if I was going to stop racing now and I told him "no way" which got me a disturbed and perturbed look. I simply explained that the risks did not change because I had an accident. They were exactly the same as before since I made a full recovery and another accident would not cause permanent damage or death, or at least the chances and risks remained the same as always. It is sometimes a cruel sport though.