BBailey

Why would you class cars or judge performance potential based on below average prep or below average set-up, or below average drivers?. Cars should not be classed it to anything less than their performance at the limit. So the performance of a back of the pack 996 is of no consequence, nor is the performance of any driver other than one qualified to actually drive a car at its limit.

If you are going to attempt to class different types of cars in various classes and make the classes competitive, you need to look at cars that are prepped to the limit of the rules and set up correctly, and cars that are driven to their limit. Otherwise, you will end up with some horrifically bad classifications.

Or would it make sense to class based on average drivers and average prep and set-up levels and just concede that when someone that knows how to drive shows up with a properly set up and prepared car, he (or she) is simply going to blow the field away? Not sure most (if any) would agree with that.

Adam@Autometrics

I thought I might add a few things.

GAC rules have not really changed since 2004, save for minimum weights. On the Marcus 997s, we ran PFC 1-piece rotors with stock calipers and minimal cooling. Gearing is stock. There is no adjustable bias. Camber is limited to -3 degrees. Engine and ECU are stock (NO X51), though the ECU can be re-programmed. Stripping the interior is not really an advantage with a minimum weight. The amount of lead in those cars is staggering.

In my experience, the GAC Hoosier is FASTER than the R6 on cars over 3000lbs (the 997 min weight is 3125 without driver) if driven incredibly hard. If you put R6s on a GAC car, it might do 2 faster laps than the GAC tire (but I doubt it) and after that, the GAC would be MUCH faster. Anyone who has run the Michelin "club" slicks vs the IMSA tires will understand that harder often equals faster.

As far as classing cars at a Club Level, you can make rules for the "average" racer, because generally, the exceptional racer will have the same advantage whatever he's driving. Unless you have an exceptional racer in each car, you can't make rules based on that. However there is almost certainly going to be average drivers in every car. We've all seen what Leh's been doing. And Cory did a mid 2:08 at Daytona in an E car during the enduro. These are great cars with great drivers, and definitely faster than average- you can't make rules based on that.
GAC cars are as fast as they are because they have great drivers and great cars with a lot of attention-much more than PCA cars get.

bruinbro

Not sure, I might have missed it but did anyone mention a cf hood? Also, how about cf doors? And, although this isn't weight savings, can you use an electric power steering pump up front ala Cup cars and disconnect/gut the OEM pump to shift weight to the front (I'm assuming this would be a good thing)?

Bro

Adam@Autometrics

No, No and No.
All stock steel body panels. Only cf on the car is the early cup decklid. Only difference in the trunk is the battery is relocated to the floor, and that is only allowed because the original battery location is needed for the fuel tank vent/discriminator.

bruinbro

Does No mean it hasn't been mentioned or that it's illegal in the class?

Bro

BBailey

It's illegal.

DHinkle

The top 5-6 teams that campaign 996's in GAC are not legal in C stock. Yes, some of the gentleman drivers are very quick and the pros like Patrick Long are unbelievbale but the cars are far more developed than most C stock PCA cars. The scruts will have their handsfull when these cars show up in PCA in the next several years. A good GAC 996 can make an average driver look real good. Sounds like C stock is heading in the direction of GTC3 and GTC4.

Adam@Autometrics

I'll agree they aren't legal, but they could be made legal without any major compromises in performance. I'll take X51 with headers over an ECU reflash anyday.
GAC cars are tuned very well with great drivers. There is no "development" that makes them special. Read the Rules: http://www.grandamerican.com/CONTENT...7/GACRules.pdf

DHinkle

Adam:

I totally disagree with your statement. If the top 996's cars were taken apart and compared to C stock rules, they would not pass the test. Many "developments" would not be seen by PCA scruts. Yes, many of the drivers are great drivers (gentleman and pros) but like PCA racing, all cars are not equal.

BBailey

Not expecting an answer, but what exactly do you think has been done to those cars that would preclude them from being "made legal without any major compromises in performance" per Adam's comment?

At the end of the day, the rules between Grand-Am Cup and PCA Stock are extremely similar (save a few differences we've already discussed here). The only major difference in cars prepped for one series versus the other is that a lot more attention to detail has likely gone into the GAC cars given the budgets present in that series.

JimB

I still think GAC cars get better times because of better preparation, better drivers and better competition. The conversion from GAC to PCA should be straight forward. As I mentioned before, the scruts should just have a simple checklist to ensure that the critical changes have been done.
Jim

Ed Newman

Is it me or do the guys who run C and B seem to welcome more copetition. Bring on the GAC cars, bring on the new GT3s, just let us run with the same kinds of mods they have. I am one... I would welcome the GAC cars to come and run in prepared (B) with me. Just let me do the same thnigs they do. Doesn't it make sense for PCA to work their rules to allow easy crossover with other groups?

BTW, someone please explain to me why I need to have an interior in my car? Even with the interior removed, I still don't make weight (no ballast). And technically, the only interior parts that I need are something that resembles carpet and a headliner since the roll cage interferes with about every damn piece of the interior as it should.

P.S. I bet you I could find something illegal on every 996 or 997 running in C and I bet you even Colin's car has something naughty hidden in it. To his defense, he may not realize it though.

Dan Jacobs

Ed,
The only thing naughty about Colin or the car is the avatar
Merry Christmas,
Dan Jacobs

38D

And what would allowing 996s to make all GAC mods do to the other cars in B? I do agree there should be a place for the GAC cars, but I would say if there really are sufficent numbers to put them into a new GTC class.


PCA club racing started out as an extension of the DE program. Many people at that time drove to and from the track.. They did not want to have to gut their cars in order to race. Things have certainly changed, but I personally have no issues with having an interior in the car.


Feel free to come on over and scrut my car anytime you like.

Ed Newman

I understand your point that club racing started from roots in DE and the stock classes were supposed to allow people to drive to the track, but when people in the stock classes are spending $30k on suspension something is wrong. Also, the disparity of power and performance int he new cars has created a big problem. This brings us to the GAC cars. Why should the mods be allowed... because the GT3s run in the B with all of the mods already... seam welded chassis, lwfw, close ratio gears, LSD, upgraded computer. Some of these are only in the 997 RS, but I bet you will see one on the track in late 2007 or 2008. Maybe the GAC cars should run in GT2R or GT2S. Personally, I would not mind running against them in that class instead of B. I also think the safety is a big problem. IMO, PCA CR is a ticking time bomb with the stock and prepared classes. It is only a matter of time until someone is killed again. You cannot run in any other club that I know of without a full cage, NASA now requires double door bars and a center net or HALO seat. PCA allows the super fast new cars to run with a cheesy bolt in bar. The problem becomes that the installation of a full proper cage, fire system and all the other stuff makes the interior (sans carpet) a lost cause. As for carpet, I understand NASA and SCCA are not allowing anymore because of the flamability. Also, HANS should be mandatory. These leaves us with a few core problems...

1. How to make the cars race safe within the stock classes or limit speed somehow to keep them safe.
2. How to keep the classes reasonably compaitble with rules from other organizations
3. How to find a reasonable home for all who come and bring Porsches (GAC GS cars)
4. How to keep the stock classes stock (no RSR K members, ERP ball link suspension, $10k shocks, etc.)
5. How to deal with all of the little details of what is allowed and not allowed. If we have a base weight, what does it matter if the radio is removed or the wrong door handle are on the car, etc.

Open for ideas (and I think PCA is too)