forklift

Racing and DE.

I would love to do more days, but I did 36 last year and if I saved that money and did 50+ my desk would probably go to someone else.

Ivan at IMA said he would come out to the track to help me dial them in. I realize it will be an ongoing challenge if I go that route, but I think it will make me more aware of what the car is doing and help advance my learning as a driver.

tkerrmd

I have been told that the PSS9's dont really hold up once you become a real track junkie. More of a basic upgrade from stock for street use. Also I think the moton set up is as good as it gets. My problem is for the money I dont think I could appreciate the difference between motons and say JIC's. I do about twenty track days a year and dont actually like to keep "messing" with the set up from track to track. So that is why I was asking about the RSR set up. Seems simpler, more cost effective, and should be all I ever need unless I have a race car, which this car will never be.
So anyone with any other thoughts on the RSR's vs say JIC's or motons. What would the chances be of me saying gosh these RSR's arent good enough wish I got the motons.

TIA

38D

I have RSRs and love them. Car handles great. And you don't need adjustables to go fast or be at the front in a race. That being said, I would likely go with whichever setup was less expensive.

tkerrmd

Colin, thanks, have you had an opportunity to try motons or JIC's and compare to the RSR's? I like the price and simplicity of the RSR's but dont want to be sorry later, and only want to do this once. Car will only be a DE car, no racing.
TIA

VZ935

I have ProTrac adjustibles on my car..have also run JRZ's..All the shocks talked about here are great..Moton's...Fox is even making a set up now . A friend of mine is running them and he likes them a lot..ProTrac is the Rob.. the "R" in JRZ's company..these are great if you are a serious racer and run a lot of tracks. I go to a rough track and we can tune the shock for dampening ,rebound ... if you are not running a bunch of tracks then a properly valved coil over will probably due the trick for most tracks and also keep you sane..you won't be turning ***** on the canisters trying to find that perfect set up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...R/035a66d1.jpg

38D

A friend of mine had JICs on his 3.6 turbo. I had driven it a few times and it felt about the same. He did upgrade to 700#/900# springs and then have the valving range adjusted in the JICs, as the springs were just not stiff enough (like 400/600).

Since I see Sebring in your avatar, this is where adjustability would come in handy. You could go a couple of clicks softer for Sebring, but then crank it up for a smooth track. Of course you'd really want to swap in different springs as well, but few people are actually going to do that. Is adjusting the shocks going to make much difference? Probably not. I do know I ran a 2:27 in my car with non adjustables my very first time at Sebring, so I say they can work just fine . But then again, I like the "set it and forget it" method.

John H

If you are understeering, it is probably not because the PSS9's are too soft. Softening the front compression dials out understeer. Think about adjustable sway bars.

Nader Fotouhi

Jim,

I am sure you understood my opinion to be in the camp of save your money. I went through this process myself. I decided not to spend money on adjustable shocks becasue I knew my A$$, although large, is not sensative enough to allow me to come in and adjust a click in this corner and two in another and go out and be 1-2 seconds faster. Considering the tracks that Potomac goes have a good smooth surface, you will not need to adjust the shocks. So, what other reason is there to have adjustable shocks that you will never touch.

I know nothing about set up, but I belive most handling issues such as over-/understeer are more sensative to tire pressure and sway bar settings, than shocks.

My $0.02.

Nader

John H

I thought the same thing about not needing anymore adjustments until you get to the point you are wrangling over a second or tenths of seconds. Last weekend I had some mid-corner understeer. I consulted my Grassroots magazine cheat sheet, made a two click adjustment on my shocks and, Voila!, understeer gone.

Two clicks really can make a big difference on laptimes especially when you are concentrating on the corner before the longest straight.

BTW, adjusting compression effects how much weight transfer you toss around from side to side and front to rear so it really has a major effect even on smooth tracks. Rebound adjustment is more useful for bumps (The JIC?Cross system I have does not have rebound adjustment). I.e. softer front compression allows more weight to be thown up front for better turn if you are pushing.

forklift

Hi John,

I have RS sways and they are one notch from the softest up front and on full hard in the rear. Part of the problem I think is that the rear shocks may be on a semi-soft setting, but I don’t know. Also I think part of it is that I have a wider rear track w/ 18mm spacers/hub extender. I have ordered a 15 mm for the front to help with this. I have 235 front tires and 275 in the rear. This is also part of the problem as 245s will help out and when I go to Hoosiers that will happen. The front PSS9s are on 4.

When I go to 245s and spacers that should help, but not sure how much. Right now feel as though I am waiting too long for the car to set.

Even if the problem is cured with the above I still need to get my rear shocks fixed. I guess I could have them revalved and have stiffer springs installed. This is the least expensive way to go. I am still weighing my options, but I am now fighting for tenths, my days of dropping over a second w/ the same setup are gone (unless I get some instruction from Jackie Stewart).

Thanks,

Jim

forklift

Hi Nader,

I have one more adjustment on the front sway and will widen the front track for the understeer as mentioned above. Maybe I will be able to put the PSS9s on a stiffer setting when I make those changes, but I still think the car will be too soft. I can tell the difference in the car from one setting to the next on the front shocks or sway bar changes. Carroll Smith points out in his book that tire pressures are not a good way to change a cars behavior as the tire will find its ultimate grip at a certain pressure. For instance I always leave my RA-1s at 39-40 hot as that is where the grip the most no matter what the car is doing as I know that is where the tires have the most grip.

Right now I am down to the low 25s in my D stock RSA on RA-1s at SPR and although I can of course improve (you always can) and think I am almost at the end of the rope w/ the PSS9s as they are now and fighting for tenths.

Chances are I will wind up re-valving the PSS9s, still not sure.

Thanks,

Jim

38D

What spring rates are you running? I don't believe that the PSS9s support the very high spring rates you really need for hard core track/racing. Most folks are typically running in the 6-800 range in the front and 800-1000 range in the rear. I'd guess that the PSS9s are more like 350-400 and 550-600.

At the SPR race last year, Mike Trombly ran a 1:22.6 last year in a USA cup, with the next fastest person in D in the high 24s.

forklift

Hi Colin,

I think the spring rates are 225-250 front and 400-600 rear. This is part of my search for the right way to go on a new suspension or worst case scenario get the PSS9s revalved for 700/900ish springs.

For better or worse I know the PCA race times well for SPR and VIR over the last few years for D. Being that I have an RSA, I am realistic that I will be taking second place (or sixth) to a well driven Cup Car, 993, 944 Cup, or……. 964 Turbo. However, I am hoping Hoosiers will get me a little over a second for high 23s and maybe a new suspension a few more tenths should that happen. Mike Ts 1:22:6 is not something I think I can realistically match, but that is the fun of this sport (my best time is a 1:25:30 on RA-1s w/ the PSS9s to date and run mid 25s consistently if it's not too hot out).

Thanks,

Jim

KOAN

Are you camber limited? That, as well as the tire type, may be the cause of the delay between turn in and "set". Is your set up "loose"? With full stiff in the rear and soft in the front, I'd expect you to be able to spin pretty easily. Is that initial rear looseness the thing that is preventing you from getting on the gas in the middle of a turn, or is it understeer?
I agree with your conclusion and reasoning for not using tire pressures for tuning.
Hoosiers will probably get you a second or 2, at least for your best lap, but if the sessions are long, and the temp is high, you may overheat them if you tend to slide.
I know that the difference in being able to adjust compression and rebound (vs my PSS9 settings)helped me correct entry oversteer with one click, and I gained a second at Mid Ohio immediately. I gained another by dialing out exit oversteer, and was able to improve braking stability as well. "your results may vary" Also, the JIC Cross set up may also be as effective, as might PSS9s with different spring rates and shock revalving. I am using 600-800 lb springs, and the ride is not bad at all, even on the street, with the shocks softened. The PSS9s, I think, are around 250-400 lb.

38D...your avatar is...is....mesmorizing

SimonExtreme

I thought you might all be interested in some stuff we had been talking about on PCGB. The person who wrote the stuff below is a seriously quick racer who has spent a lot of time setting up cars.

"I had JRZ tripple adjustables all round on standard 993rs springs (stripped out 993 RS sprint/hillclimb race car),very good,especially in the wet.These dampers helped my competition times in the wet,but not in the dry.
I have since junked the £4k dampers and fitted standard back on,with a better geo set up and now faster than the jrz dampers on lap times and the first 64 feet standing starts.(This is on standard springs)
I then fitted the JRZ dampers to the gt2 racer,and they out performed the bilstein tripple adjustables big time.
I think standard is best,you can get used to how the car feels all the time,ie the same,which also helps.
The double springs ,3.8 rsr,gt2 etc have considerably stiffer springs in general,and have adjustable dampers to match/control the springs.And of course stiff is not always best!!
ie spa and the ring.As a example for spa with my gt2 race car,i fitted 2,000lb rear springs and 1800lb front springs,it then took me nearly 2 days to get the dampers to match the springs!!with the adjustable dampers.But then try driving around the ring on such springs!
The real advantage of adjustable dampers is also to increase the nitrogeon gas pressure in the remotes,which will then actually help support the car,as if putting stiffer springs on.
And in the wet,drop some pressure out,as if fitting softer springs,which allows the car to roll more for wet traction.

Its a science for sure."

and also.....

"The jrz i fitted to my gt2 racer,they are great,when you have time to set them up.
Also you realy need to understand them,otherwise your times go backwards.Its not just a case of twiddling the *****,the main indicator being time.

I have just worked with a friend on his 964 rs,new wishbones,new standard dampers allround,wheel bearings,good tyres,and most importantly a good set up.The car will stay with any 964rs and damper set up!"

And this is the conclusion I have come to as well. On a 964 RS, the stock gear is so well sorted that all you need is to get the geometry right and you are about as good as you need for all but the most demanding competitive driving.

Final comment regarding 964 RS....

"For circuit use, think about the 993cup dampers and springs,not adjustable,but fantastic on the fast circuits as well as the slower circuits.But they are almost dangerous on the road!"

Basically, if the springs and dampers are matched and the suit the car, it doesn't matter how adjustable or not, it is.