JCP911S

Don;t disagree, but a CGT and a Toyota driving at 65 on the highway are not that different in skill level required.

Track is another matter. Certainly PCA has a very regimented driver classification.... and while it is not based on the car, it is based on whet the Instructors will let the student do in the car. Personally I'm not going to let the guy in a GT3 drive any fasster than the guy in an SC with the same skills.

agio

This law suit dialogue is so important and begs the question that has been asked (but not answered)in another thread: What about making the DE experience the safest it can be? We talked extensively about instructors, the drivers, officials, insurance, the number of runs per day for students, the length of time of these runs, the number of students per instructor, the consistency of the programs within PCA and across other groups, etc.
The general consensus was disappointing I thought. Many seemed unmoved and a bit disinterested and some even felt was "much to to about nothing."
Well, that's unfortunate because if that is the general feeling, then we have have some very serious issues to resolve in the near future regarding DE.
For my instructor buddies and me, safety comes first; it always did and it always will. After that have all the fun you want.

TD in DC

Funny thing is that everyone I know who is involved with PCA and DEs is incredibly concerned about safety and strives to make our events as safe as they can be. Nothing is perfect, but, contrary to popular belief, the law does not require it to be . . . I have never met anyone who is indifferent when it comes to safety.

agio

"Funny thing is that everyone I know who is involved with PCA and DEs is incredibly concerned about safety and strives to make our events as safe as they can be. Nothing is perfect, but, contrary to popular belief, the law does not require it to be . . . I have never met anyone who is indifferent when it comes to safety."
TD/DC
OK, not to be too technical here, but my point was not that people are not being safe. By in large, we all are. I just think I'd like to see a kind of renewal and rededication to upgrading our safety standards. People get complacent in all endeavors...and we need refreshers now and again.
I don't want to beat a dead horse or pick a fight about safety and I don't think I've ever met anyone on the track (well, maybe a couple of drivers) who were indifferent when it comes to safety, it's just that some of these people need to be proactive...i.e., instead of being an unconscious incompetent driver, be a conscious incompetent driver realizing what needs improvement and working to be a conscious competent driver, which has to include being very safe.
I've probably said too much about it anyway at this point.

NetManiac

I'm not sure I understand your point agio. I mean TD is right. Every PCA event I go to, weather its a Race or DE, they stress safety above all else. They stress it in the driver's meetings. The instructors stress it in the car. Isn't the stress on safety the reason why there are no points and no trophies at PCA club races?

JCP911S

I agree... IMHO the focus on safety has increased significantly over the last several years... in our club, for instance, the sign-off rules have been significantly tightened, we have beefed up instructor training, and are trying to get to a one student per instructor.

In addition, the focus on safety equipment is much much greater than it was several years ago... both in terms of proper installation, and in emphesis... our instructors both discuss this individually with students, and set the example with our cars, and use of H&N restraints, etc.

TD in DC

The irony here is that I think we need to be extraordinarily careful about giving advice on car setup/installation of safety equipment. Pointing out obvious defects is a good thing. However, we run the risk of potentially increasing the chances we will get sued if we give advice on how to install/setup safety equipment. If you say "we must do things this way," and then someone gets hurt, and then it turns out that they might not have been hurt, or at least not hurt so badly if they had done it another way . . . . there could be a problem.

It is very hard to stay current on safety equipment. So, maybe we should be careful before wading into requiring X or forbidding Y. Again, we should prohibit obvious flaws, but stay out of the rest of it.

gbaker

Man, does that say it all.

On another, and decidedly positive, note, we have seen a disproportionate growth of interest in safety from the amateur end of the spectrum. Good examples would be the DE drivers and the youth drivers--as young as 6 years of age.

NetManiac

I do not disagree, that this is what our society has evolved into. But it certainly is extremely frustrating. I mean think about that from the perspective of a newbie walking around the pits asking "How do I secure my 5 point harness to the roll bar?" And no one answers, except maybe to say "Go take a look at a few of the cars around and see what they did."

When I was first starting out, I was in a rush to get my car ready for my first event. I put the harness in without really ready the instructions (yeah, you've never done that before?). Two or three events later someone finally points out that I had done it wrong. Being how I drive a pretty unique car I had a TON of people looking in and around may car and just about every event. But no one said anything.

Another way to illustrate the suckieness of this ideal. Last summer I was working up in Napa, CA for 6+ weeks. Truck, trailer, and car all with me. The weekend before coming back to San Diego, I take a look around the trailer, and truck to make sure all is well. Well, all wasn't well. One of the bolts holding the 5th wheel hitch to the chassis had broken off. Not sure when or how, but now my 15,000# trailer was only being held to my truck by 3 bolts instead of 4. Didn't really want to take a chance on the trailer coming off somewhere along the 5. So I start calling around to find someone to fix my hitch. I called every RV, truck, mechanic, and welding shop in and around Napa and no one would even touch my hitch. Not one. I finally got to a welding shop where the guy would at least talk to me. He said if I brought the angle bracket over and didn't mention the word "hitch" he would weld it for me*. So I took a day off work. And not really knowing anything about trucks and hitches I proceeded to take the bracket off. Took it over and had it welded. Put the truck back together that afternoon. Made it back to San Diego the next weekend without issue.

But as it turns out I wasn't the best mechanic in the world. Couple weeks later I do another once over, and a few of the bolts that I had worked with were lose. So was it better for me, and amatuer mechanic to pull the hitch apart, have it repaired, and then put it back together or a professional?

So I agree with you TD, that our society is that way, and we might risk a law suit. But I can't really sit by a let someone "figure it out" when I know something that may help them get it done better. I mean, set aside the law suit angle for a second. How would you feel as a human if you let someone go out on track with poorly setup safety equipment and they hurt themselves or died? As part of my instructorship I think I need to teach them, not only how to drive, but proper track etiquette and safety. Someone did it for me, and I will do it for others, even if it lands me in the poor-house someday.

OK, rant over...

* Turns out that so many people sued over hitches that insurance companies jacked the rates up to ridiculous levels. And shops do not get enough business to justify keeping a "hitch" policy open.

TD in DC

Just to be clear . . . I think it is great to give people pointers and help on a personal level, where you can be very careful to caveat your points.

I just think that PCA and the other organizations should stay away from giving advice "as an organization" for potential liability reasons.

If anyone personally came to me and asked for help, I would gladly help them and tell them what little I know without fear of litigation.

JCP911S

TD... yes. this is why our club does not have an official policy on safety equipment other than that it be in sound condition and "equal restraints" rule.

All of the discussion is either theoretical in class or done one on one in the paddock on an personal advisory basis.

THe good part, however, is that safety equipment is replacing engine mods and wheels as one of the hot topics of conversation in the paddock, and alot of he newer students are coming around to the philosopy that safety equipment should be the first modification done on the car rather than the last.

NetManiac

Ah, OK. I misunderstood that from your previous post.

agio

"I'm not sure I understand your point agio. I mean TD is right. Every PCA event I go to, weather its a Race or DE, they stress safety above all else. They stress it in the driver's meetings. The instructors stress it in the car. Isn't the stress on safety the reason why there are no points and no trophies at PCA club races?"
OK, then, your PCA region and you are to be congratulated...my helmet is off to you. I do think that the PCA regions are about the safest around, certainly compared to other groups. Here in FL, we have several other groups running in addition to PCA and my point (here it is) would be to try and get all of the different groups to be on the same page, particularly with our PCA regions.
While I have never claimed to know all of the answers, I am a certified national PCA instructor-mentor (one of the original founding mentors) as well as a sign off instructor with all of the groups. I enjoy instructing students; working with instructor candidates; solo students as well as with other instructors.
It's obvious (even to me) that most drivers on the track are safe. I just want to "raise the bar" if at all possible to keep our programs safe, fun and cost effective.