SundayDriver

"High risk" is a relative term and is different for different people. I race SCCA who keep rather good data on risks. The risk of death in that sport is almost half way between driving a car on the street and riding a motorcycle on the street.

I don't consider that particularly high risk. I have many friends who are amazed that I participate in that sport as they think it is very high risk. Most of my wife's friends are appalled at the risks I am taking.

DE's carry a higher risk than driving a car on the street but I would naturally assume the risk of death is lower than racing. Many would consider that too high a risk to take for a silly activity of driving around in circles for nothing (unlike racing where we drive around in circles, fight for the same real estate but can win a $2.00 trophy.)

Regardless, DE's are more dangerous that what most people do all day. DE's are not required. We attempt to mitigate the risks by using safety equipment and having emergency personell present. People have died and will continue to die in DE's, just as they do on the street. Obvioulsy, anyone who understands that level of risk and continues to do this sport, has made a decision that the risks are worth the rewards. Too many, however, continue to deny the risks and play the old racer's game with death and injury. That game is to justify by identifying why that particular death would not happen to you - if you don't do that, it is pretty much impossible to go back on track after you have a friend die on that track.

Bob Rouleau

Sunday - I recall a death at DE last year. Was it not the exception? I refer to PCA DE mind you. Death is extremely rare as far as I know.

TD in DC

I view the issue much the same way. Oddly enough, for our purposes here, the "perception" that the track is incredibly dangerous -- even if it in reality is safer than driving on the street -- is exactly what will help us. If the average or reasonable person "thinks" this sport is very risky and dangerous, and yet they choose to participate anyway AND sign a waiver, the chances that their estate will recover are far lower than if it were the contrary (i.e., if everyone thought the sport were very safe despite the fact that people were frequently hurt or killed).

JCP911S

Bob R..

First, congrats on your safety record which IMHO is quite impressive and way below the norm.

Second, DE is MUCH safer than street racing. however to imply to any student that it is "safe" is, I believe, misleading. Losing control of the car is an inherent part of performance driving, and will happen to EVERYBODY some time or another if they do this long enough, and no amount of effort, precaution, or wishful thinking will change the laws of physics.

While I hate to see some guy wreck his car, as an Instructor, I don't mind the students seeing a beautiful car all smashed up and rolling out on a flatbed once in a while... you simply cannot be a fast and safe drivier without understanding the cosequences, this is a valuable lesson, and I do not want to be in a car with somebody that does not understand that in the starkest possible terms.

To me the worst thing is to see some Green student smash up their car who had no idea that this could happen, and see how devastated they are... and I have seen this happen many times... Now I'd going ot exxagerate a bit here, but personally, I wouldn't bother me a bit to take a smashed up Porsche to every event and plop it right in the middle of the paddock.

Anir

That's music to my ears. I've already decided to spend every last cent if necessary to countersue anyone who files a frivolous lawsuit against me. I'm fortunate that I've never been sued despite having done over 8,000 Mohs surgeries for skin cancer (including over 500 melanomas) in the past 7 years. Our cure rates have been over 99%. Amazingly, I still have a few patients who are upset when they hear it's not 100%.

I suspect a suit will come sooner or later. If you treat high-risk lesions, the odds are simply against you that you'll prevent every bad outcome. After all, a 99% cure rate means a 1% recurrence rate.

TD, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page after reading your later posts.

mamoroso

A collection of random thoughts....

- 160mph, 3point belt, no hans.... I have done it several times on an Autobahn. People would overtake me. So it is all relative. For a German that situation does not necessarily mean you are in a position to risk your life...

- the "What a reasonable person would EXPECT" concept has been brought up. A reasonable person does NOT expect to die at a DE. We all know there are risks but NONE of us EXPECTS to die at a DE. This was an accident caused by a series of coincidences that all lined up with the ill consequences that we all know.

- Nobody knows what was told to Cory by either Mr Keaton or the Club. So the part of the lawsuit that rests on the failure to disclosure abt Mr Keaton driving style, alleged brake problems and handling issues of the CGT rests on weak ground imo

I go back and forth on whether this is lawsuit has merit or not, especially considering it's the passenger's widow suing.
Something got screwed up. People died.
Now we can look at the facts and decide that this is the NORMAL risk that you run when you participate at a DE. It does not mean that you EXPECT to die but there is a chance that if things go wrong death is a possible occurence, even as a passenger.
If this is the case then I think nobody is responsible. It was a freaky combination of a lot of things that went wrong.

If this is considered not a normal risk then responibility must be allocated.
-For one I think that it's ridiculous that PAG is being named in the suit.
-The passenger climbed in a 200mph+ car with no safety equipment. And they were going on a racetrack, not to get the groceries. The passenger was considering buying the car himself... he wanted to see how good it was.
-the Ferrari guy hesitated, the flagman maybe screwed up, the wall was maybe too close (wrong angle or whatever).

I personally think the lawsuit has no merit. $hit happens, it was their moment. They knew what they were doing and they knew it could happen...

We'll see

Carrera51

I've been following this thread and thought of what I think is an important question. Was the CGT driver an instructor? Was the passenger an instructor? If neither was, how was a student level driver able to get out on a hot track with a student level passenger?

At every event I've participated in, this has always been not allowed and enforced.

Geo

I agree that nobody should EXPECT to die at a DE, I think every reasonable person should very much know that it's a very real possibility without question. When I teach the classroom session at the SE-R Club of America annual convention DE, I ALWAYS stress this point. I'm sure there are some who think I'm over the top, but the facts are, people can and do die at DEs. Period. IMHO a reasonable person should understand this clearly. Furthermore, I think any club or club region or chapter than represents DE in any other way is doing a disservice to itself AND it's members.

SundayDriver

There are a few potential issues in your question...

First, not all group require an instructor to be in one of the seats.
My understanding (via runor mill) Is that Cory was a racer - had run Grand Am or similar. Now that does not automaticlally make anyone an instructor, just an observation of apparent experience.
In the complain that I have seen posted, one allegation is that the club did not follow their own procedures. That could be one of those being questioned.

SundayDriver

Bravo!

ceboyd

has anyone wondered if it was the lawyer who went on the fishing expedition and convinced the wife to sue?

TD in DC

You've got to be kidding, right? The passenger was very wealthy, and I understand that he had a sizeable estate. More importantly, he had tremendous earning potential. When a potential earner like that dies very young, it is the extremely rare case that the surviving spouse who depended on that earning capacity would not seek any means available to make herself or himself whole.

Lawyers are a part of the problems we have, but they are not the root of the problem itself. Women are
I am 100 percent joking, but I just couldn't resist myself

ceboyd

wow.... being female.. and a complete track junkie enthusiast... I find your comment about women being the problem VERY OFFENSIVE!!!

bobt993

TD, clean up your mess...... I know you were kidding. Ceboyd, TD is not specifically offending women, he offends everyone equally including himself.

TD in DC

C'mon . . . I know you are a woman That's exactly WHY I said it. I am an attorney. You suggested that an attorney was the root of the problem. I was pulling your chain by saying an obviously ridiculous statement to tease you a little. I even explictly said it was a joke in the yellow text. I can't be much clearer about joking around if I tried. If I had known you were a doctor, then I might have said "doctors," but the connection between you being a woman and the client in this case -- the widow -- being a woman was too strong.

If you want to be offended by a statement that I said as a joke and obviously do not mean seriously, then be my guest. If you are lobbying to get me to buy you an apology beer or wine the next time we are at the track, that's ok too. I have been known to employ that strategy myself a few times.