Suggestions for Improving Driver's Ed
05-29-2006, 08:10 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
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My 2 cents: The no brake technique is both informative and practical. I (and I suspect most of us) urge my students to avoid all brakes on the last lap. Helps the brakes and reinforces the momemtum thing Bob was discussing; even though its only one lap and under yellow at that.
My first skid pad experience was an eye opener. It's a relatively simple exercize that should be more common in our events.
We can learn from other groups such as Chin and PBOC. At Road Atlanta with the BMWCCA all drivers start with an instructor and all non instructor groups attend multiple classroom seession, often using in track video of that day's "events"
Jack
My first skid pad experience was an eye opener. It's a relatively simple exercize that should be more common in our events.
We can learn from other groups such as Chin and PBOC. At Road Atlanta with the BMWCCA all drivers start with an instructor and all non instructor groups attend multiple classroom seession, often using in track video of that day's "events"
Jack
06-09-2006, 10:28 PM
#62
Instructor
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Are you sure about the lap times at The Glen
Hey BobT 993, I think some drivers may be taking some liberties with their times.
taken from www.theglen.com
LONG COURSE Fast Qualifier
Rolex Series
Class Name Lap Time Speed MPH Date
DP Max Angelelli 1:43.602 118.144 mph 6/04
GT Bill Auberlen 1:54.874 106.552 mph 6/04
SGS Darren Law 2:03.187 99.361 6/02
Grand-Am Cup Series
GS Greg Wilkins 2:15.564 90.289 mph 6/04
ST Eric Curran 2:20.367 87.200 mph 6/04
It is a shame some drivers don't get advanced due to the car they drive (a certain brown 944NA) and have to sit through the same classroom session each year, and have an instructor sitting next to them that in some cases doesn't understand the car, track or driving as well as the student.
Say hi to your wife and the crew. I will be seeing you soon
taken from www.theglen.com
LONG COURSE Fast Qualifier
Rolex Series
Class Name Lap Time Speed MPH Date
DP Max Angelelli 1:43.602 118.144 mph 6/04
GT Bill Auberlen 1:54.874 106.552 mph 6/04
SGS Darren Law 2:03.187 99.361 6/02
Grand-Am Cup Series
GS Greg Wilkins 2:15.564 90.289 mph 6/04
ST Eric Curran 2:20.367 87.200 mph 6/04
It is a shame some drivers don't get advanced due to the car they drive (a certain brown 944NA) and have to sit through the same classroom session each year, and have an instructor sitting next to them that in some cases doesn't understand the car, track or driving as well as the student.
Say hi to your wife and the crew. I will be seeing you soon
06-12-2006, 11:06 AM
#63
Instructor
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From a neophyte POV - if you are an instructor and you are trying to get your student to adjust his or her line in a really fast corner, ask them to slow down a little before trying it. Don't ask me why, just trust me it will save everyone a lot of headaches.
06-26-2006, 12:31 PM
#64
Banned
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Too much safety = no fun. Everything is a risk. We could all be safe and ban all flying and all driving, think of the lives that would be saved. For that matter let's band war and safely wait for our enemies to come get us. When flying fighters off carriers the squadron safety officer once told me "safety is for sissys". Sorry any thinking that remotely sounds liberal and short sited upsets me.
06-26-2006, 12:55 PM
#65
Race Director
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
If you brake early and less, you do not lose that much time.
This (braking early and with less force) is something I am in the process of understanding, learning, and applying to my driving. Thanks for verifying that this technique is a good one!
Followup question: did you find that in subsequent races, you were still braking earlier and with less force, even with your brakes in proper order? Or did you brake later, but still with less force? I suppose it all depends on the turn, track conditions, how far your closest competitor is...etc.
-Zoltan.
06-27-2006, 05:32 PM
#66
Racer
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Here's an idea that one of the groups uses down here and I think it's great: During the first run of the day for the student (with the instructor in the car), there is no passing. This is very helpful because the student is not as stressed out going around the track and having to deal with the pressure of other drivers trying to pass. It does simplify the tasks for the first timer in the first run of the day.
06-27-2006, 05:49 PM
#67
Drifting
Sometimes Peachtree BMWCCA has the first session of the weekend for begining students behind a pace car with the first half of the session in 3rd gear only and the second half of the session with no brakes. Very good excercise for begining students. Also at lunch time they will do a track walk. Load up in cars and trucks, drive to various turns and point out features of the track that you miss at speed. Like the camber of the turn, uphill into the braking zone, landmarks, etc.
I use 3rd gear only a lot for brand new students, learn the line first. If I take a student for a ride with me I point out not using my brakes on the cool down lap.
I use 3rd gear only a lot for brand new students, learn the line first. If I take a student for a ride with me I point out not using my brakes on the cool down lap.
06-27-2006, 07:37 PM
#68
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Z-man
Necessity is the mother of invention!
This (braking early and with less force) is something I am in the process of understanding, learning, and applying to my driving. Thanks for verifying that this technique is a good one!
Followup question: did you find that in subsequent races, you were still braking earlier and with less force, even with your brakes in proper order? Or did you brake later, but still with less force? I suppose it all depends on the turn, track conditions, how far your closest competitor is...etc.
-Zoltan.
This (braking early and with less force) is something I am in the process of understanding, learning, and applying to my driving. Thanks for verifying that this technique is a good one!
Followup question: did you find that in subsequent races, you were still braking earlier and with less force, even with your brakes in proper order? Or did you brake later, but still with less force? I suppose it all depends on the turn, track conditions, how far your closest competitor is...etc.
-Zoltan.
Of course, in racing, it is not about the fastest lap time, it is about getting there first so often we need to go too deep, fight to regain balance and defend our position at the expense of lowest lap times. This is the fundamental reason that two cars dicing are often slower than a single experienced driver.
I was just reinforcing the point that hard braking at the absolute limit does not save all that much lap time - especially in a DE where there is no prize for fastest laps.
06-28-2006, 12:10 AM
#69
Burning Brakes
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looking forward to the peachtree event next weekend with all this good mention of the club 
that said, i really enjoy running with that club. i believe even the advanced groups goto classroom, even the solo guys too. "A" group students also sit in during the instructor meeting - this is quite beneficial for them, i find.
that said, i really enjoy running with that club. i believe even the advanced groups goto classroom, even the solo guys too. "A" group students also sit in during the instructor meeting - this is quite beneficial for them, i find.
06-28-2006, 10:05 AM
#70
Drifting
Originally Posted by penguinking
looking forward to the peachtree event next weekend with all this good mention of the club that said, i really enjoy running with that club. i believe even the advanced groups goto classroom, even the solo guys too. "A" group students also sit in during the instructor meeting - this is quite beneficial for them, i find.
that said, i really enjoy running with that club. i believe even the advanced groups goto classroom, even the solo guys too. "A" group students also sit in during the instructor meeting - this is quite beneficial for them, i find.
06-29-2006, 10:01 AM
#72
Drifting
Originally Posted by penguinking
john what car do you drive? i was at the last peachtree event as well
06-29-2006, 10:03 AM
#73
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I haven't read this entire thread yet but will. I have been investigating how to make instructing more beneficial for both the instructor and student.
I have to agree with most here that more rules won't make anything better. In fact, it will probably worsen events as some folks will become enforcers of the many rules to the detriment of the overall event.
As far as separating fast from slow (either car or driver) that should be left up to the driver to be cognizent of where they belong in the order. If we only taught visual techniques to the novice there would be far fewer problems with closing speed differentials. In my research I am finding that teaching novices how to look ahead correctly prepares them to drive any track well in the future but that is a discussion for a different thread.
I have to agree with most here that more rules won't make anything better. In fact, it will probably worsen events as some folks will become enforcers of the many rules to the detriment of the overall event.
As far as separating fast from slow (either car or driver) that should be left up to the driver to be cognizent of where they belong in the order. If we only taught visual techniques to the novice there would be far fewer problems with closing speed differentials. In my research I am finding that teaching novices how to look ahead correctly prepares them to drive any track well in the future but that is a discussion for a different thread.
06-29-2006, 10:42 AM
#74
Race Director
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
That did not really change technique for me in following races, but I have already gone through that stage. You can keep going deeper and deeper until your lap times suffer. Going deeper than the optimum point, costs you in lap times. Braking earlier than the point where you can manage the balance of the car also costs you time.
Of course, in racing, it is not about the fastest lap time, it is about getting there first so often we need to go too deep, fight to regain balance and defend our position at the expense of lowest lap times. This is the fundamental reason that two cars dicing are often slower than a single experienced driver.
I was just reinforcing the point that hard braking at the absolute limit does not save all that much lap time - especially in a DE where there is no prize for fastest laps.
Of course, in racing, it is not about the fastest lap time, it is about getting there first so often we need to go too deep, fight to regain balance and defend our position at the expense of lowest lap times. This is the fundamental reason that two cars dicing are often slower than a single experienced driver.
I was just reinforcing the point that hard braking at the absolute limit does not save all that much lap time - especially in a DE where there is no prize for fastest laps.
Truly these are words of wisdom. What you said (highlighted in blue) is so brutally simple, yet it takes drivers a lifetime of driving to master!
Thank you. I will take that morsel of truth to the track.
-Zoltan.
