A.Wayne

Hey Finny !
Ok we understand where you are coming from , but less not forget Mika Salo 's Pole position in germany for Ferrari , before he was turned down by the team ! he was thought by many to be better than Hakkinen originally.
Or that JJ lehto showed as much promised as both Hakkinen and salo before his accident while testing at Benetton.
Jarno Sarrinen ( Jarno Truilli is named after him ) was a great Motorcycle racer , but he would have had a hard time beating KING KENNY ROBERTS my friend,
For me There has been no one like Valentino on a Motorcycle !

But anyway we are

What of Montoya's performance last weekend over Kimi !

Rich Sandor

I firmly believe someone is sabotaging Kimi's ride. If his car would stay together, he could outrun both Renault's with ease. I really wanted JPM to be more successful, because his agressive driving and hair trigger anger reminded me of Senna, whom I've always adored. Unfortunately, since his son Sebastian's birth, JPM has been a bit of a slow poke.

Looks like there are some teething problems with a lot of those V8's..

Geo

This goes back to things I wrote earlier that were totally looked over when the tar and feathers were brought out.

What is the difference between Hakkinen and Salo? I still say it's the McLaren ride and two gifted wins.

In British F3 in 1990 there was nothing to choose from between the two. The championship came down to the wire and nobody knew who was going to take the title. Jump to now and Salo is a "never was" and Hakkinen is a two time world champion. Sometimes the right teams and gifts like that are the difference. I don't think Hakkinen was ever destined for true greatness like Senna, Prost, and Schumacher.

Of course, this will probably bring out the tar and feathers again.

Lothar

George,

Obviously, Hakkinen would not have won a race, much less a championship, had he been driving a Minardi.

Neither of Mika's first two wins were "gifted". At Jerez in 1997, DC was going to get passed regardless because he was slow compared to Mika. JV needed to win a championship by finishing the race. Mike was driving for the win. If Mika was faster, and he was, then JV would be stupid not to preserve the car by avoiding either a collision or a mechanical failure. That was completely self serving on JV's part and therefore, not a "gift".

At Melbourne 1998, Hakkinen earned the win by his driving. The unscheduled pit stop resulted from a "team" communication problem. The team decided to make the result right for Mika because he earned it, not because they thought it would aid his psyche.

In 1998, Mika and DC went into the season as equals. Mika got it done and DC didn't.

The reason any tar and feathers are coming out is because what you contend is just so rediculous and cannot be supported by the facts.

I've learned a lot about you from this thread. Most notably and with only a few exceptions, you refuse to address evidence that refutes your point.

Truth is rarely found when you dismiss what you don't want to hear.

A.Wayne

Yeah Geo,

But , remember as was stated before during the time frame in mention Hakkinen
was recovering from a massive head injury and WAS NOT THE DRIVER HE WAS BEFORE , at the time of his 1st WC Hakkinen was back to being himself and you could see the difference in his driving , IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A GIFTED WIN AS THAT WAS MERE COINCIDENCE. He was just about recovered , to being that aggressive driver he once was. ( look at Davey Jones , Karl Wendlinger both drivers never ever recoveried from their head injuries to be as before )


Myself comparing Salo to Hakkinen , is not a put down to Hakkinen as at the time of his WC's MIka was at the top of his game. Just that i also believe that Salo would have produced Great Drives as so JJ Lehto. Less also not forget that in Eddie Irvines First race at Ferrari he Out qualified Schumacher and was promptly banned from testing for almost a year and had his contract redone to suit Herr Schumacher . My point? in searching for these things, Michael House has more glass windows than do Hakkinen's, also while pounding Hakkinen for his 2 gifted races , what about the 12 or so that was gifted to schumacher ( that i'm aware off might be more ) during his Career do you consider Schumacher a Hack also for delivering on 7 WC this way.

A.Wayne

During the Era of discussion , this is how i would rank the drivers , not just on raw speed but on talent , speed and the ability to deliver. regarding a conversation I once read, a question on speed was placed to Roger Penske years ago, his response, do not show me the fastest driver , but the driver that can win .


1. Michael Schumacher 7 Wc !

2. Mika Hakkinen Best racer of this generation

3. Damon Hill ( watch the tapes hill has made some storming drives and almost won in that Hack of an Arrows if he did not run out of fuel on the last lap last corner, destroyed schumacher in the rain in japan in 95, Damon's performance under the constant pounding by Pat Head was to me astounding as the man had actually elevated himself to deal with the situation at hand )

4. Rubins Barrichello ( Donington 93 ,3rd in a Jordan no electronics ,engine failed on the last lap , rookie yr, pole positions in a jordan and a stewart complete driver rain or dry never had a picture of ron dennis sexing a water buffolo like DC , Hence got his break late and at the wrong time )

5. Jacques Villnueve ( crazy fast , could have been more )
6. JJ Lehto ( fast bad accident , ended career , schumacher was happy )
7.. Karl Wendlinger ( Head injury monaco 94 , never recovered )
8. Hienz Herald Frentzen ( very good driver seem to being carring a chip , delivered when least expected , never lived up to potential )

9. David Coulthard ( good driver, perfect no 2, Ron Dennis step son )

10. Jean Alesi ( I believe to be the fastest of all of these drivers GG's car control , speed and raw talent , was also matched with no brains and a temperament bordering on Period cramps . Without a doubt the biggest rookie impact i have ever seen in the sport and was in such high demand he had 3 major teams spending big bucks to get him. Jean's rookie drives for Tyrell was breath taking , as to what could be! Without a doubt the BIGGEST WASTED , TALENT EVERY SEEN IN THE SPORT OF MOTOR RACING. )


PS, Please do not bring up , trullli , ralf , fisi, et al , as these guys are from another generartion of drivers.

Geo

The tar and feathers come out because some of y'all worship Hakkinen.

I don't think Hakkinnen was a hack. I just think he was no where near as good as some would like to believe, i.e. not in the same league as Senna, Prost, Schumacher. Those three from the time they stepped into an F1 car you knew they were destined for true greatness.

My other point in relating to Salo is sometimes there is a fine line between being world champion and being a forgettable statistic, such is the world of F1.

And don't forget, I'm not the only one who thinks Hakkinen's first two wins were gifts. I posted links to grandprix.com and they thought so too. It's NOT a unique look at it.

Geo

Getting off the Hakkinen topic....

As far as the greatest of the great go, consider who some have had for teammates:

Prost:
Lauda
Senna
Hill
Mansell
(count up the championships there)

Senna:
Prost
Hill
Hakkinen
(count up the champioinships there)

Schumacher:
a bunch of lap dogs

While I do consider Schumacher one of the true greats when you compare him with Senna and Prost and who they had as teammates while they earned their accomplishments you can see why many will never count Schumacher in quite the same league as Senna and Prost.

Heck, even Mansell had Prost and Piquet as teammates, although he had Patrese (sp?) when he won his championship.

Sad that today we don't get the powerful match-ups for teammates that we used to get.

A.Wayne

Geo,
Why do you keep comparing hakkinen to Senna , i do not believe any one is comparing Hakkinen to Senna , Just saying he is not a hack like DC and he is a deserving champ. I will agree that there is a possibility that Salo, Wendlinger, Barrichello given the same opportunities would have won championships in the Mclcaren , but they did not ! So while not among the greats he is still a deserving champion. i will also state that his team mates where more challenging to him to overcome , than say Schumacher , none of his teamates
every won a championship.

Remember when Hakkinen had arrived in F1 the competition was well off the wall , compared to the Schumacher era. But both drivers proved they where above the rest. My list was based on the drivers of that era not best of all time

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW MANY WC WOULD HAKKINEN , HILL OR JV HAVE WON IF THEY HAD A CONTRACT LIKE SCHUMACHER GIVING THEM FULL
CONTROL OF THEIR TEAM MATES.


.

Flying Finn

I have to disagree (and I really think highly abut Kenny!).

Jarno beat one of the greatest, Agostini & others with a bike that was no where near what i.e. Agostini had. I mean that would be similar to winning in F1 with Minardi or something.

Today, Valenino really rules, he's unbelievable!

Larry Herman

A.Wayne, where have you been? I just saw a post from you and it reminded me that you owe me $20.

Double or nothing next year?