It's time to put up or shut up for Montoya ....
03-20-2006, 02:58 PM
#91
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Official Jack off extinguisher
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by MJSpeed
I couldn't agree more...here's something I posted a while back...
...it's tough to surpass Senna's drive at Monaco in his first race there and in the rain, not to mention in the piece of sH!% Toleman lapping faster (I believe it was 12 seconds faster than leader Prost) than anyone else and eventually passing Alain for the lead. If not for the officials stopping the race half way through that lap (which means they are official as of the last complete lap) Senna would have won that race. He did this driving one of the worst cars in F1 at the time, in Monaco, in the RAIN!!!
Or the one in Spa, Belgium in 1992 where he lead the race for ten laps...you may ask what the big deal is, the great one lead lots of races, the only difference was that first it was in the rain, second it's Spa in the rain and third he did it on SLICKS!!! And those where slicks not the grooved semi-slicks of today. I sometimes wonder if Senna would have lived to drive in this era, would he ever have to change to rain tyres???
As Eddie Irvine once said, "Spa it's a lot like soccer....you need a lot of speed and *****!!!"
Or in 1993 when Senna had the "customer" Ford engines and still managed to win 5 times...led the championship at some point and what did Heir Schumacher do with the works Ford support...he won once and was never close to being a threat in the championship!!
...it's tough to surpass Senna's drive at Monaco in his first race there and in the rain, not to mention in the piece of sH!% Toleman lapping faster (I believe it was 12 seconds faster than leader Prost) than anyone else and eventually passing Alain for the lead. If not for the officials stopping the race half way through that lap (which means they are official as of the last complete lap) Senna would have won that race. He did this driving one of the worst cars in F1 at the time, in Monaco, in the RAIN!!!
Or the one in Spa, Belgium in 1992 where he lead the race for ten laps...you may ask what the big deal is, the great one lead lots of races, the only difference was that first it was in the rain, second it's Spa in the rain and third he did it on SLICKS!!! And those where slicks not the grooved semi-slicks of today. I sometimes wonder if Senna would have lived to drive in this era, would he ever have to change to rain tyres???
As Eddie Irvine once said, "Spa it's a lot like soccer....you need a lot of speed and *****!!!"
Or in 1993 when Senna had the "customer" Ford engines and still managed to win 5 times...led the championship at some point and what did Heir Schumacher do with the works Ford support...he won once and was never close to being a threat in the championship!!
Senna was a very gifted F1 driver and they come along only every ten to twenty years. BUT he was a primadonna who thought he was bigger then the sport and was hated more than loved when he was alive due to his poor attitude and sportsmanship.
Since his death(which was his fault IMHO) fans give him the rosecolored glass treatment and make him this mythical figure but in reality he was human with good or bad attributes like everyone else.
Your opinion may vary.
03-20-2006, 03:58 PM
#92
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
For better or worse, that's pretty much how I remember Senna. I wonder what everyone will be overlooking when they think back on MS in 15 years?
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
03-20-2006, 04:42 PM
#93
Race Director
Originally Posted by pole position
Senna was a very gifted F1 driver and they come along only every ten to twenty years. BUT he was a primadonna who thought he was bigger then the sport and was hated more than loved when he was alive due to his poor attitude and sportsmanship.
Since his death(which was his fault IMHO) fans give him the rosecolored glass treatment and make him this mythical figure but in reality he was human with good or bad attributes like everyone else.
Since his death(which was his fault IMHO) fans give him the rosecolored glass treatment and make him this mythical figure but in reality he was human with good or bad attributes like everyone else.
I remember Senna was the first driver I knew of in my lifetime who literally bullied his way around and through people. MS is the same only much worse, partly I tink because few drivers had the stones to truly challenge his bullying ways (like his weaving around at the start). Senna at least had Prost, Mansell, and a few others who wouldn't give in to his tactics. For most of his career, IMHO MS has had few who would challenge his bullying, not that it's his fault.
Senna did admit to crashing Prost. Prost never admitted (and still doesn't) to crashing Senna the year before. I think it was clear that Prost at the very least made a ill advised late move at best and crashed Senna at worst. I think for Senna it was just tit for tat - giving back what he got now that he knew the rules they were playing under. Not that it's right.
People will probably forget most of MS's transgressions once he retires and only remember the wins and poles... Much to my chagrin. MS I think just took up where Senna left off (tactics and tude) only 10x so. By the end of his first full season I didn't like him at all anymore.
03-20-2006, 10:11 PM
#94
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It really was a new era for F1 as we moved into the '90s with the Prost/Senna take-outs. I can't think of any earlier precedent. Certainly there were accidents, some due to "bonehead" moves, but not the direct crashing on purpose. I guess it may be attributed partly to the cars being a whole lot safer now and partly due to the "winning is more important that how you win" mentality that has crept into our society, increasing steadily throughout the last century. Even how we look at the drivers has changed. DC is seen as a bit of a loser (by many) simply because he has not been quite as good as some of his teamates for example. In other words, often we only admire the winners. Was this also true back in, let's say, the '60s?
Having said that, and given that I am not a MS fan, I have to admit that Michael has mellowed since the mid-nineties and nowadays is not sooo bad. Can be pretty cut and thrust and give no quarter, but some may argue that's just hard racing. He also at least now admits that his lowest career point was Jerez '97 because of what he did - took a while though...
The only driver I have really loved over the past decade has been Mika H., not because he was necessarily the best driver (who can define that anyway), but more because he was a real racer and a gentleman and he didn't spend a lot of time whining.
Having said that, and given that I am not a MS fan, I have to admit that Michael has mellowed since the mid-nineties and nowadays is not sooo bad. Can be pretty cut and thrust and give no quarter, but some may argue that's just hard racing. He also at least now admits that his lowest career point was Jerez '97 because of what he did - took a while though...
The only driver I have really loved over the past decade has been Mika H., not because he was necessarily the best driver (who can define that anyway), but more because he was a real racer and a gentleman and he didn't spend a lot of time whining.
03-20-2006, 11:11 PM
#95
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Originally Posted by amjf088
The only driver I have really loved over the past decade has been Mika H., not because he was necessarily the best driver (who can define that anyway), but more because he was a real racer and a gentleman and he didn't spend a lot of time whining.
03-21-2006, 12:16 AM
#99
Race Director
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
You'd better delete that before George sees it. Don't need a flame war here!
Once again I DON'T DISLIKE HAKKINEN.
03-21-2006, 09:36 AM
#101
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by pole position
Funny that you mention Monaco because then you will also remember when Senna a few years later crashed out when he was like a minute or so in the lead due to brain fade and locked himself in the hotelroom for a few days. Or intentionally crashing out Prost and admitting to it. Or winning F1 championships only in the best car(like everyone else). Or getting/demanding number one treatment from Honda when he was with Prost at Mclaren. Or punching Eddy Irvine in the face because he dared to unlap himself.
Senna was a very gifted F1 driver and they come along only every ten to twenty years. BUT he was a primadonna who thought he was bigger then the sport and was hated more than loved when he was alive due to his poor attitude and sportsmanship.
Since his death(which was his fault IMHO) fans give him the rosecolored glass treatment and make him this mythical figure but in reality he was human with good or bad attributes like everyone else.
Your opinion may vary.
Senna was a very gifted F1 driver and they come along only every ten to twenty years. BUT he was a primadonna who thought he was bigger then the sport and was hated more than loved when he was alive due to his poor attitude and sportsmanship.
Since his death(which was his fault IMHO) fans give him the rosecolored glass treatment and make him this mythical figure but in reality he was human with good or bad attributes like everyone else.
Your opinion may vary.
BTW, how was Senna's death his fault?! Please explain what you mean?
03-21-2006, 09:49 AM
#102
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by amjf088
...The only driver I have really loved over the past decade has been Mika H., not because he was necessarily the best driver (who can define that anyway), but more because he was a real racer and a gentleman and he didn't spend a lot of time whining.
Originally Posted by amjf088
...In other words, often we only admire the winners. Was this also true back in, let's say, the '60s?
I certanly think he is the best F1 driver who ever lived.
Gilles Villeneuve.
He never won the Championship but when he strapped himself behind the steering wheel, made that red "brick on wheels" fly, that truly was driving!
If any of you has never seen him drive, do yourself a huge favor and get a hold of a video clip, tape or DVD of him driving and prepare.
03-21-2006, 09:54 AM
#103
Race Director
Originally Posted by amjf088
The only driver I have really loved over the past decade has been Mika H., not because he was necessarily the best driver (who can define that anyway), but more because he was a real racer and a gentleman and he didn't spend a lot of time whining.
Most of club guys are like a 3 or 4 for the "wild ones".
03-21-2006, 09:56 AM
#104
Race Director
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
Interesting.
Prost, Mansell and Piquet are all laughing and joking a bit.
Senna has a fake smile. Seems like his mind is focused on his next race and beating the stuffing out of the clowns next to him.
Great photo!
03-21-2006, 10:03 AM
#105
Race Director
Originally Posted by Flying Finn
I certanly think he is the best F1 driver who ever lived.
Gilles Villeneuve.
Gilles Villeneuve.
anyway there was a "lost" GV interview in it from '79. Pretty interesting.
He talked about crashing... Drive like he figured yeah he would get hurt now and then, but never killed. Seemed to think that crashing and being hurt was just a normal part of the sport. What he did not like was hurting the car since that mean no racing or poor finishing. Interesting view point that I don't believe the racers share today.
There was the classic question however... "Has F1 gotten too boring? Not enough passing?" Answer: No..., but they will take away side skirts. Hmm 25+ years later we are still asking the same thing, except now it is not side skirts "spoiling the action", but electronic aids.