M758

One the reaons is it is hard to be one of the all time F1 greats is that it takes work and drive. And lots of them.

Any F1 driver (even the slower ones in backmarker cars) are good drivers. The difference that seprates World Champs from good carrer F1 drivers is small. Sometimes it is a break here and there and little luck. Other times it means working 10% harder and being that much more focused. To be one of the all time greats takes something special. There are few "special" drivers out there.

Whether you like Schumi or not you do have to give him credit for being two do two things. 1) Take TWO teams and bring them to the top of the sport for multiple years. 2) To stay out front for as many years as he has.

The two championship at Benetton showed he was strong driver. The lean years followed by dominance at Ferrari shows that he is one of the greats F1 has seen. Now it is impossible to compare his driving with a Senna, Prost, Clark, Steward, Fango, etc. They drove for the most part in different era's and with different challenges. Schmui will go down in History as one of the greats in F1. Senna may be the best all time talent, but Schmi has changed the sport an left a long lasting mark.

Other F1 champs will come and go and be mostly forgotten. Hill, JV, Mika, all will be names only remember by a few over the years, Stong drivers no doubt, but never one of "greats". To be an F1 great is very hard and is reserved for those that exceptional and stand out among the elite.

Hell, I would love to have 1/4 of the talent of a Mika, DC, Montoya, Button, Barichello, Fisi,etc.

Geo

Amen

And that is much of what I was trying to say about Mika. If Mika hadn't gotten onto the McLaren team, and the team had not dumped Andretti, or DC not gifted those two wins, would he really have risen to the top. Getting close without getting the win and being dominated by a teammate (if DC didn't gift those wins, we would have been 4-0 vs Mika in the win column) can kill a driver's drive and lead to career busting frustration. But by pointing this out and pondering it, I become a pariah. Up to the point of DC's gifts I was doubting Mika could win. Forget the Supercup. That's not filled with the top drivers in GP. It's a bunch of journeyman pros and/or wealthy semi-pros. He should dominate them IMHO.

Once again I agree with you 100%.

Amen to that.

Rich Sandor

It's not just the driver that needs to put in that extra effort above everyone else, but it's also the team members. If the engineers and mechanics aren't sacrificing thier family time, their team will not be as successful as those that do.

I've read that people like Jean Todt make huge sacrifices with thier families in order to focus on F1, and while we can't see the families suffering, we can definately see a driver's performance suffer if they are spending too much time with thier family.

Lothar

Quote from GEO: "Getting close without getting the win and being dominated by a teammate (if DC didn't gift those wins, we would have been 4-0 vs Mika in the win column) can kill a driver's drive and lead to career busting frustration."

Holy Crap! In 1996, how the hell was Mika dominated by DC? Mika out scored and out-placed DC and had more podiums. In 1997 DC outscored Mika by only 5 points. In 1998 Mika was World Champion. And Who is "we"? The DC fan club?

Flying Finn

Sheesh... Now you too are busting my *****!

I'll get there, I'll get there.

I miss racing (haven't raced after I quit motocross) and will do it with my 993 (or some other Porsche) but just don't have the time and means at the moment.

But I don't want to talk about it, I'll talk about it when I have a licence and am heading to the track for real.

Flying Finn

To put Mika with JV and especially Hill ! in a same category is just totally wrong.

mitch236

Hell, I would love to have 1/4 of the talent of Yuji Ide!! (although I think I could've done a better job of pitting in the stall correctly)

M758

Well Mika is good. Top notch 2 time world champion. JV and Hill both won world championships in a similar way. By taking the best car of that year and winning. I don't believe Mika would have won had the Mclaren not be as good as it was those two years. That is the same as Hill & JV in the Williams when they won. I don't mean to say either of those 3 were crappy drivers. No they were all good drivers as even with a top notch car it takes great skill to win a world championship.

There are two kinds of F1 champs. The majority that win becuase they are strong driver and are paired up with strong cars for the year. Then are the rare few whose skill transcends (like a Senna) (or transforms in case of Schumi) their equipment to win.

Lets face facts, Hill, JV, and Mika all have run for years in F1. When did they win a WC? When their teams got the car just right. When car's were off the languished. Guys like Senna and Schumi can win inspite of their cars. Senna,by simply out driving everyone else and Schumi by forcing and generating the input for the team to build a better car.

I think Mika is great driver, but not good enough to build a winner around him or to take an inferior car to a WC. While we all remember the dominance of the Ferrarai in the past few years back when Mika won 2 the Ferrari was still a 2nd rate car. The Mclaren was simple a much better car, just like Williams in the two prior years.

Geo

Careful Joe.... You'll be the next pariah here for saying Mika isn't a F1 god.

Interestingly enough the 4 championships we are talking about here (Hill, JV, Hak) were all won in Adrian Newey designed cars IIRC.

GREEK-TURBO-RACER

As I mentioned in an old thread last year, I had the pleasure of being in the car with my buddy Mika (Finn). Thats what I call him. Trust me guy's , I have been in Porsche's where guys think they have talent. THIS guy can drive !!! Yes, the Finns do have it in their blood. And with Hakinnenn, sorry on spelling, having the resume he's had with the Championships, hence my nickname for the Finn.

Yeh, I do hope you get racing soon bro. I am with you 1000 % !!!


Theo

mitch236

And you have to love those names! Just saying them is fun!

A.Wayne

I'm sorry but JV and Hill is not Mika Hakinen and just one last point THEY ALL NEED THE BEST OR CLOSELY EQUIVALENT COMPETITIVE CAR TO WIN A WC.
as so senna and as so Schumacher . While the great ones can win races in an inferior car i haver never seen one win a WC in a jordan etc.

What if when Mika had won his WC , Schumacher was in the best car , that's right ask eddie irvine who would have been WC if he was not sabotaged by the world politics of F1 in preserving Scumacher's image AND BEFORE YOU RANT OFF ABOUT THIS , TELL ME WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A TEAM ANY TEAM , NOT ABLE TO FIND THE WHEELS FOR THERE CAR FOR 55 SECONDS
WHEN MAKING A PIT STOP FROM THE LEAD. Scumacher did not win a WC in a ferrari until it was the best car on the track , BEST CAR , BEST TEAM , BEST TIRE , BEST PACKAGE , so please do not try to down play or diminish the accomplishments of men , who have raced at the HIGHEST LEVEL of their sport and accomplished winning A WC. by saying they only won a WC because they where in the best car THEY ALL WHERE IN THE BEST CAR OR CLOSELY EQUIVALENT.

THis is why they are also judged at the time by who there team mate was as he is the only other person driving the same car, as in mansell /piquet , senna/prost , Prost / mansell , Hill/ JV, Hakinene /Coulthard, Schumacher /Irvine , Schumacher / vernstappen ,
and we know who among that list is the exception and needed a contract so such illustrious talent could not race him for a championship.

MIka raced David for his WC , Hill raced JV, Frank Williams and Patrick head for his WC . Williams load on Hill to pull williams back from Senna's death and constant battering of the man makes to me Hill's WC outstanding , shown also by the amount of respect that was given to him by JV ( who talent has been diminished by drive turds since leaving williams )

So they are all special in there own right , while some are at a different level than others and you can witness that magic in your own way, they had more than one thing in common , but mostly they all drove the best cars of the era
when they where WC.

Lothar

George, finally you've said something I can agree with. If you look at many years prior to Alonso's first WC, every championship car was the product of Newey, Bruan, Byrne or some combination.

It's pretty scary to think that the know how to produce a winning car lies in the brains of so few.

Consider how bad Williams was the year after JV's WC. When the job was done, Sir Frank was content to let the design team leave. Unfortunately for Williams, Frank believes that everyone is expendable. I think he needs a new merit based compensation plan for the designers. However, they wisely have put Patrick Head partially out to pasture. I think his days of positive contribution have passed.

Geo

What is really interesting is the very real possibility that next year's championship might be won by DC (if he performs well enough to retain his ride - absolutely NOT a given), JPM (if he goes to RBR), or someone else who may find themselves driving for RBR. This is NOT meant to cheer for DC. I like him, but I don't think he's special among special men (if you know what I mean). The point is that with RBR racing money and determination, combined with Newey at the design helm, I think RBR is the place to be next year. Ferrari and Renault cannot be counted out. But RBR just needs the driver. DC might be able to, but he's had multiple chances in a Newey car and I don't think he'll make it happen now.

RBR is kicking off the silly season already. I'm pretty sure I read that JPM is on RBR's A list. Rumor has it he may be on Renault's A list. (how did we get back on-topic?)

So, to take this intersting discussion further (and back off-topic), who would be a really intersting (and not unreasonable) choice for a RBR seat next year?

A.Wayne

[QUOTE=Geo]What is really interesting is the very real possibility that next year's championship might be won by DC (if he performs well enough to retain his ride - absolutely NOT a given), J



Ohh Boy !

NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS ! SORRY , i was wrong , i take that back , NEVER IN 2 MILLION YEARS