It's time to put up or shut up for Montoya ....
03-15-2006, 02:42 PM
#31
If Kimi had a reliable car, he'd probably be the class of the field... maybe he flogs the car or something, but it looks like he has just plain-old ****ty luck... last year when the car held together, he was pretty hard to beat...
Alonso is clearly the package but he's also been pretty lucky with car reliability... seems like Fisi's car is always breaking down.... is that his driving, being the #2, or jusut plain race luck again? Who knows.... some great drivers make their own luck by driving just withing the limits of the car and not abusing it.... really hard to tell from the cheap seats.
I think MS's greatest contribution was to pull the Ferrari team up to the top level.... he set a standard and pulled everybody else up...before MS, Ferrari was a clown-show... now it is a machine... that's leadership IMHO...
Preparation and homework probably count for more that outright driving talent in F!.
BTW... Rosberg looks like a freak... anyone can have one good race, but that was an incredible drive... be interesting to see if he can keep his head... he could be reallly special
Alonso is clearly the package but he's also been pretty lucky with car reliability... seems like Fisi's car is always breaking down.... is that his driving, being the #2, or jusut plain race luck again? Who knows.... some great drivers make their own luck by driving just withing the limits of the car and not abusing it.... really hard to tell from the cheap seats.
I think MS's greatest contribution was to pull the Ferrari team up to the top level.... he set a standard and pulled everybody else up...before MS, Ferrari was a clown-show... now it is a machine... that's leadership IMHO...
Preparation and homework probably count for more that outright driving talent in F!.
BTW... Rosberg looks like a freak... anyone can have one good race, but that was an incredible drive... be interesting to see if he can keep his head... he could be reallly special
03-15-2006, 04:44 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by Geo
I have a good memory as well. I can also do research. From GrandPrix.com regarding the European GP:
"And so it was that Mika Hakkinen won his first Grand Prix. Thanks to Jacques Villeneuve and in no small part to David Coulthard as well, because David had let Mika get ahead with three laps to go - probably on orders from the pits. The team did not bother to give details of this but David was not bubbling with joy after the event... Hakkinen himself was speechless and made little sense after the race."
As for the points, I don't remember if winning was 9 or 10 points in 97, but the minimum swing in points for the two for the season would have been 6 or as much as 8. Mika had been on the team for some time and couldn't "break his duck" (anybody know the origin of that phrase?), yet DC came in and won twice before giving a win to Hakkinen.
And from Australian in 98:
"In the middle of the race there was a communication problem between McLaren engineers and Hakkinen and the Finn suddenly appeared in the pitlane, thinking he had been called in. He was waved through but by then Coulthard was in the lead. In the closing laps Coulthard was ordered to move over and allow Hakkinen to win. The two had lapped the whole field."
Again Coulthard gave Hakkenin a win.
I remember when Hakkinen took over from Andretti and don't remember him doing anything particularly better than Andretti. And remember, Hakkinen had been driving F1 cars for a while and Andretti was just coming to terms with them, and at a time when testing was sudden deeply curtailed.
I just don't think Hakkinen is near what some people make him out to be. I truly wonder if he would have developed into a world champion w/o Coulthard's help. Getting close and not breaking through can lead many a driver to frustration in their career. Call me stupid if you like, but as I've posted above, Hakkinen needed Coulthard's help to break onto the top step of the podium. Further I wonder what would have happened if Coulthard were more hard nosed (such as Schumacher) and took those wins for himself. Many have said Coulthard is too nice a teammate.
"And so it was that Mika Hakkinen won his first Grand Prix. Thanks to Jacques Villeneuve and in no small part to David Coulthard as well, because David had let Mika get ahead with three laps to go - probably on orders from the pits. The team did not bother to give details of this but David was not bubbling with joy after the event... Hakkinen himself was speechless and made little sense after the race."
As for the points, I don't remember if winning was 9 or 10 points in 97, but the minimum swing in points for the two for the season would have been 6 or as much as 8. Mika had been on the team for some time and couldn't "break his duck" (anybody know the origin of that phrase?), yet DC came in and won twice before giving a win to Hakkinen.
And from Australian in 98:
"In the middle of the race there was a communication problem between McLaren engineers and Hakkinen and the Finn suddenly appeared in the pitlane, thinking he had been called in. He was waved through but by then Coulthard was in the lead. In the closing laps Coulthard was ordered to move over and allow Hakkinen to win. The two had lapped the whole field."
Again Coulthard gave Hakkenin a win.
I remember when Hakkinen took over from Andretti and don't remember him doing anything particularly better than Andretti. And remember, Hakkinen had been driving F1 cars for a while and Andretti was just coming to terms with them, and at a time when testing was sudden deeply curtailed.
I just don't think Hakkinen is near what some people make him out to be. I truly wonder if he would have developed into a world champion w/o Coulthard's help. Getting close and not breaking through can lead many a driver to frustration in their career. Call me stupid if you like, but as I've posted above, Hakkinen needed Coulthard's help to break onto the top step of the podium. Further I wonder what would have happened if Coulthard were more hard nosed (such as Schumacher) and took those wins for himself. Many have said Coulthard is too nice a teammate.
And BTW, that first win, Mika was catching Ville and DC fast as the race was ending. DC could not catch Ville and was doing same lap times as him but Mika had faster lap times than both of them having the chance to catch Ville and take the win.
Then when he came behind DC, he (for OBVIOUS reasons since Mika was able to catch Ville, DC wasn't) let Mika by so that he could catch Ville and ty to win which he then did.
DC never had chance to get that win since he was not closing Ville and since Mika had chance to get the win, team of course told DC (who was much slower) not to try to block Mika.
And Australia, DC & Mika made a "deal" before the race, who ever is the first after the first lap gets the win since there' sno point of trying to knock each other out. Team didn't order this, DC honored their deal and let Mika go by.
In any case,
You are suggesting that a man (Mika), who was this near to death, after that horrible chrash, next time when drove F1 car, did a lap record, came back not only just driving but was really fast ONLY won a champion because DC "let" him win... Please...
03-15-2006, 05:15 PM
#34
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Hey Finn,
I just read Geo's response. You took the words right off my keyboard. DC had no choice but to let Mika by since DC was not making ground on Villeneuve.
Villeneuve had already won the WC, so there was little point in risking an incident with Mika or breaking the car. However, Villeneuve was obviously running respectable lap times since DC didn't seen to be able to catch him.
George doesn't remember Hakkinen doing anything particularly better than Andretti. I guess out-qualifying Ayrton Senna in your first outing as the team's race driver doesn't count! The McLaren was not a good car, which ultimately led to Senna leaving the team. None the less, Hakkinen and Senna entered qualifying with the same ****-poor Peugeot power plant and qualified: Hakkinen 3rd and Senna 4th.
George also does not realize that the poor performing McLarens, prior to association with Mercedes, were not going to contend for championships or high points positions in '93, '94 and '95. So even though Senna and McLaren recognized their shortcomings during that time, George would rather hang it on Hakkinen because he doesn't like him.
I'm not a huge M. Schumacher fan, but I give the man his due as a talented driver who, for the most part, is what most reasonable people make him out to be. If I thought like George, I guess I would proclaim that Schumacher would never have won a race if Senna hadn't gifted him a win at Portugal in 1993. But then that would be a load of crap. Does George have an objective bone in his body?
If Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna took notice of and respected Hakkinen's driving abilities, I suppose they are wrong and they really should have been watching David Coulthard, The Man Who made the Two-Time World Champion.
I just read Geo's response. You took the words right off my keyboard. DC had no choice but to let Mika by since DC was not making ground on Villeneuve.
Villeneuve had already won the WC, so there was little point in risking an incident with Mika or breaking the car. However, Villeneuve was obviously running respectable lap times since DC didn't seen to be able to catch him.
George doesn't remember Hakkinen doing anything particularly better than Andretti. I guess out-qualifying Ayrton Senna in your first outing as the team's race driver doesn't count! The McLaren was not a good car, which ultimately led to Senna leaving the team. None the less, Hakkinen and Senna entered qualifying with the same ****-poor Peugeot power plant and qualified: Hakkinen 3rd and Senna 4th.
George also does not realize that the poor performing McLarens, prior to association with Mercedes, were not going to contend for championships or high points positions in '93, '94 and '95. So even though Senna and McLaren recognized their shortcomings during that time, George would rather hang it on Hakkinen because he doesn't like him.
I'm not a huge M. Schumacher fan, but I give the man his due as a talented driver who, for the most part, is what most reasonable people make him out to be. If I thought like George, I guess I would proclaim that Schumacher would never have won a race if Senna hadn't gifted him a win at Portugal in 1993. But then that would be a load of crap. Does George have an objective bone in his body?
If Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna took notice of and respected Hakkinen's driving abilities, I suppose they are wrong and they really should have been watching David Coulthard, The Man Who made the Two-Time World Champion.
03-15-2006, 05:15 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
George.. I usually agree with you, but Mika is and was a far better driver than you want to give him credit for. Maybe you just don't like him, as there are a lot of good drivers that I don't like myself, but considering Mika's multiple championships, you cannot say a single bad thing about his driving. He has proven himself as one of history's best race car drivers. Couldthard, on the other hand, has NOT.
03-15-2006, 05:36 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by JCP911S
...I think MS's greatest contribution was to pull the Ferrari team up to the top level.... he set a standard and pulled everybody else up...before MS, Ferrari was a clown-show... now it is a machine... that's leadership IMHO...
BTW... Rosberg looks like a freak... anyone can have one good race, but that was an incredible drive... be interesting to see if he can keep his head... he could be reallly special
BTW... Rosberg looks like a freak... anyone can have one good race, but that was an incredible drive... be interesting to see if he can keep his head... he could be reallly special
Pretty much everything changed in the team, starting from the fact that all the team personel, including mechanics etc. were (and are) required to shave!
He also was the "mastermind" behind getting Brawn, Byrne & Schumacher in to the team.
Also, as far as Ferrari's change and succes goes, those two names; Byrne and Brawn have contributed HUGELY, in my honest opinion, more than Schumi, to Ferrari's succes.
Those who don't know those two names or some how question their part in Michael & Ferrari's succes:
Every single championship Michael Schumacher has won was in a car that was designed by Mr. Rory byrne and under the Technical Director Ross Brawn.
Rosberg: OMFG yes that was amazing! trust me, he can keep his head and will be something.
03-15-2006, 05:56 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
Pretty much everything changed in the team, starting from the fact that all the team personel, including mechanics etc. were (and are) required to shave!
My predictions for this year? Kimi, Alonso, Schumi, and Rosberg Jr!!!
03-15-2006, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
Except for Ross Brawn.
My predictions for this year? Kimi, Alonso, Schumi, and Rosberg Jr!!!
My predictions for this year? Kimi, Alonso, Schumi, and Rosberg Jr!!!
Yeh, I kind of agree with Rich on this one. The luck will change for both Kimi and Alonso I feel. And the kid ?? Holy $hit ...... just give him a good and reliable car and watch out !!!
The wild card ...... if JPM can get his act together, it might be a better fight in the end of the year that we all think. Remember , he needs to stroke that ego of his with good results.
Theo
03-15-2006, 06:36 PM
#39
Race Director
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
George.. I usually agree with you, but Mika is and was a far better driver than you want to give him credit for. Maybe you just don't like him, as there are a lot of good drivers that I don't like myself, but considering Mika's multiple championships, you cannot say a single bad thing about his driving. He has proven himself as one of history's best race car drivers. Couldthard, on the other hand, has NOT.
I agree that DC will never go down as one of the true greats.
03-15-2006, 07:06 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
George.. I usually agree with you, but Mika is and was a far better driver than you want to give him credit for. Maybe you just don't like him, as there are a lot of good drivers that I don't like myself, but considering Mika's multiple championships, you cannot say a single bad thing about his driving. He has proven himself as one of history's best race car drivers. Couldthard, on the other hand, has NOT.
When Mika raced as a guest driver in the 1993 Supercup at Monoco, he destoryed the field and basically toyed with them like a big cat playing with its food. The guy has talent.
Btw, what about the drive by Kimi at Bahrain! DFL to 3rd was absolutely amazing.
03-15-2006, 07:49 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
When Mika raced as a guest driver in the 1993 Supercup at Monoco, he destoryed the field and basically toyed with them like a big cat playing with its food. The guy has talent.
Btw, what about the drive by Kimi at Bahrain! DFL to 3rd was absolutely amazing.
Btw, what about the drive by Kimi at Bahrain! DFL to 3rd was absolutely amazing.
03-15-2006, 08:49 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
I remember when Hakkinen took over from Andretti and don't remember him doing anything particularly better than Andretti.
And remember, Hakkinen had been driving F1 cars for a while and Andretti was just coming to terms with them, and at a time when testing was sudden deeply curtailed.
1: Mika was just a better racer, plain and simple.
2: Michael never liked living in europe, and was constantly flying back to the USA to compete in races, in the middle of the F1 season. I mean, come on, you just can't do that kind of stuff in F1... the best drivers will be commited to there and now, and not on another continent.
03-16-2006, 12:17 AM
#43
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by Geo
I have a good memory as well. I can also do research. From GrandPrix.com regarding the European GP:
I remember when Hakkinen took over from Andretti and don't remember him doing anything particularly better than Andretti. And remember, Hakkinen had been driving F1 cars for a while and Andretti was just coming to terms with them, and at a time when testing was sudden deeply curtailed.
I just don't think Hakkinen is near what some people make him out to be. I truly wonder if he would have developed into a world champion w/o Coulthard's help. Getting close and not breaking through can lead many a driver to frustration in their career. Call me stupid if you like, but as I've posted above, Hakkinen needed Coulthard's help to break onto the top step of the podium. Further I wonder what would have happened if Coulthard were more hard nosed (such as Schumacher) and took those wins for himself. Many have said Coulthard is too nice a teammate.
I remember when Hakkinen took over from Andretti and don't remember him doing anything particularly better than Andretti. And remember, Hakkinen had been driving F1 cars for a while and Andretti was just coming to terms with them, and at a time when testing was sudden deeply curtailed.
I just don't think Hakkinen is near what some people make him out to be. I truly wonder if he would have developed into a world champion w/o Coulthard's help. Getting close and not breaking through can lead many a driver to frustration in their career. Call me stupid if you like, but as I've posted above, Hakkinen needed Coulthard's help to break onto the top step of the podium. Further I wonder what would have happened if Coulthard were more hard nosed (such as Schumacher) and took those wins for himself. Many have said Coulthard is too nice a teammate.
Sorry George,
If memory serves me correctly Andretti destroyed at least 6 McClaren MP5/5
chassis that year , i mean Jesus Hakkinen a side , Andretti F1 bout was by all measure , a disaster ! I'm sure you would not call Hakkinen F1 career a disaster !
David was a good number 2 that is it , he has no results and frankly,I believe he has a Pic of Ron Dennis Humping a water Buffalo as he should have been dropped years ago. That clown chrashed into the pitwall , while making a pit stop from the lead of the 95 Australian GP , Frank williams should have Fired him on the spot ending his F1 Career.
Last but not least in Evaluating Mika's Career, when David had joined McClaren
mika was still recovering from his horrendous Accident in Australia , where he almost lost his life , I want to believe after the death of Senna Ron felt obligated in helping Mika get back to his old ways. It was IN THIS TIME THAT DAVID HAD SCORED VICTORIES FOR MCCLAREN BEFORE MIKA , as recovering from head injuries can take longer than most would think, but once they where on equal terms Mika was in a class above David .
03-16-2006, 12:29 AM
#44
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by Lothar
Hey Finn,
If Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna took notice of and respected Hakkinen's driving abilities, I suppose they are wrong and they really should have been watching David Coulthard, The Man Who made the Two-Time World Champion.
If Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna took notice of and respected Hakkinen's driving abilities, I suppose they are wrong and they really should have been watching David Coulthard, The Man Who made the Two-Time World Champion.
Haaa, Haa, Haa, aaagh ! THat really nails it ! Haa, you are right i guess they should have seen David's Brilliance after hitting the pitwall in Australia.
03-16-2006, 12:40 AM
#45
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by Rich Sandor
Finnish drivers just have it in thier blood. If Kimi had qualified, he would have won the race. Schumi and Alonso, move over. The Fins are coming.
In closing , Montoya last year had the measure of Kimi on quite a few occasions , at the close of last season and he himself would have done better if he had a better start to last season. Well this year we will See if Kimi is solid as most think , they both have their strenghts and weakness's , Alonso at this point , well , looks like a million, all
