Let's be honest . . . just how risky is this sport?
02-06-2006, 05:03 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
...
sure, we could all stay home and hide under a bed, but statistically speaking, the french fry kills many more!
mk
sure, we could all stay home and hide under a bed, but statistically speaking, the french fry kills many more!
mk
Well Todd, there's your answer. Tell your wife you'll give up french fries
02-06-2006, 05:21 PM
#47
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Please do not forget we are on the track with other drivers and we have no control over their decisions and actions. I know car to car contact is rare in DE but we can not dismiss the possibility that others on the track can cause a deadly situation for the rest of us. Someone's poor decision can put one of us in harms way even though we are driving with in our limits and taking all the necessary safety precautions.
02-06-2006, 05:31 PM
#48
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sjanes - I do not disagree with what you said. On the other hand, I think that risk takers are just that, risk-takers. Whether the risk-taker is driving on the road and taking risks, or driving on the track, the level of risk is dependent on the driver. Some people drive at triple digit speeds on the road. Going off and hitting a tree is the same whether you started on a race track or a public road. Good tracks don't have trees nearby though.
Glen, losing brakes or blowing a tire is a risk whether on the road or on a track. I feel that tracks are safer because good ones have run off areas, gravel traps etc. Losing your brakes can happen anywhere and if it's going to happen I'd rather it happen on a track with nice gravel traps than a public road lined with stately oaks or perhaps an 18 wheeler crossing in front of me.
Prudent track drivers maintain their cars better than the average street only driver. We (the non risk takers) check our tires and our brakes much more frequently than people who don't participate in DE. On the other hand, I have seen some foolish risk takers get tossed out of the morning tech line for low brake fluid, worn out pads and/or bald tires. As I said, the degree of risk is more a factor of the driver than not. Race tracks are inherently safer than public roads.
Lastly, let's eliminate the "bravado" factor - "I participate in drivers ed. I risk my life - love me for my big cojones" stuff. Some people want to pretend that DE is racing just to inflate their self opinions.
Best,
Glen, losing brakes or blowing a tire is a risk whether on the road or on a track. I feel that tracks are safer because good ones have run off areas, gravel traps etc. Losing your brakes can happen anywhere and if it's going to happen I'd rather it happen on a track with nice gravel traps than a public road lined with stately oaks or perhaps an 18 wheeler crossing in front of me.
Prudent track drivers maintain their cars better than the average street only driver. We (the non risk takers) check our tires and our brakes much more frequently than people who don't participate in DE. On the other hand, I have seen some foolish risk takers get tossed out of the morning tech line for low brake fluid, worn out pads and/or bald tires. As I said, the degree of risk is more a factor of the driver than not. Race tracks are inherently safer than public roads.
Lastly, let's eliminate the "bravado" factor - "I participate in drivers ed. I risk my life - love me for my big cojones" stuff. Some people want to pretend that DE is racing just to inflate their self opinions.
Best,
02-06-2006, 05:32 PM
#49
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A woman's point of view.
I organize two (and sometimes 3) Driver Eds a year. Like your wife, I went into shock when the two deaths occured at the California Speedway. Soon after, Watkins Glen had taken a life. It was time to start evaluating, but first - facts were needed.
At San Diego, it was a Ferrari event. The starter was not there, when someone signaled the Ferrari it was okay to leave the pits. The Porshe was on a cool off lap - supposedly - and well, fate had them match up. There were no other cars on the track. Things that were in the wrong place - just were.
At Watkin Glen - another, what ever could go wrong seemed to. The information on it has not been fully disclosed, but there have been interesting statements popping up on the subject. I was informed that this was the FIRST death at a PORSCHE Driver Ed. (The other death always mentioned - seems to have been a club race.)
Yes, we must not forget that even Driver Eds are dangerous - especially when in the hands of the wrong people. Egos have a funny way of getting in the way of safety first. We do give an "artificial" feeling of safety at the track - but in the right hands - it is a fairly safe place to be. (Much safer then driving the highways with the high death tolls on them... )
I am in agreement with most of the regulars here. If the organizers have worked hard in keeping certain issues safe, if you have corner workers that are making sure that the group out has no loose canons... if, if if -- well, if all goes well - and everyone behaves - then we feel we've had a success. At our own DEs we want everyone to have a great time, remember they are not at a race -- and...go home in the same condition they arrived, but with a few more miles on their car.
One way to have a "safer" time at a track - pick a safe track (One with plenty of run-off). Tracks are not all built the same, and those concrete barriers are frightening....
I organize two (and sometimes 3) Driver Eds a year. Like your wife, I went into shock when the two deaths occured at the California Speedway. Soon after, Watkins Glen had taken a life. It was time to start evaluating, but first - facts were needed.
At San Diego, it was a Ferrari event. The starter was not there, when someone signaled the Ferrari it was okay to leave the pits. The Porshe was on a cool off lap - supposedly - and well, fate had them match up. There were no other cars on the track. Things that were in the wrong place - just were.
At Watkin Glen - another, what ever could go wrong seemed to. The information on it has not been fully disclosed, but there have been interesting statements popping up on the subject. I was informed that this was the FIRST death at a PORSCHE Driver Ed. (The other death always mentioned - seems to have been a club race.)
Yes, we must not forget that even Driver Eds are dangerous - especially when in the hands of the wrong people. Egos have a funny way of getting in the way of safety first. We do give an "artificial" feeling of safety at the track - but in the right hands - it is a fairly safe place to be. (Much safer then driving the highways with the high death tolls on them... )
I am in agreement with most of the regulars here. If the organizers have worked hard in keeping certain issues safe, if you have corner workers that are making sure that the group out has no loose canons... if, if if -- well, if all goes well - and everyone behaves - then we feel we've had a success. At our own DEs we want everyone to have a great time, remember they are not at a race -- and...go home in the same condition they arrived, but with a few more miles on their car.
One way to have a "safer" time at a track - pick a safe track (One with plenty of run-off). Tracks are not all built the same, and those concrete barriers are frightening....
02-06-2006, 05:44 PM
#50
The responses are interesting, however I think that 2 different questions are being answered.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
No one denies that the danger exists. But the question doesn't ask if it's dangerous, but how dangerous is it? The only way to answer that question is with statistics. If we say that any activity that could result in serious injury or death is considered very dangerous simply because that possibility exists, then practically every activity we engage in would be considered very dangerous. People have died choking on food, therefore my eating dinner tonight is considered very dangerous. Obviously, that's not the case, but follows the same logic.
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
No one denies that the danger exists. But the question doesn't ask if it's dangerous, but how dangerous is it? The only way to answer that question is with statistics. If we say that any activity that could result in serious injury or death is considered very dangerous simply because that possibility exists, then practically every activity we engage in would be considered very dangerous. People have died choking on food, therefore my eating dinner tonight is considered very dangerous. Obviously, that's not the case, but follows the same logic.
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
02-06-2006, 05:51 PM
#51
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Zman.
I had my wife participate in a Skip Barber driving school first. The program does alot to build confidence in a drivers awareness and evasive control of the car. Step 2 was DE events in a relatively easy to driver car. Along with DE events, she became buddies with other female drivers. It probably helped that Chris of CDOC brings her cup car to some of our events. It took awhile, but she really enjoys it now and there was never pressured to attend. Another buddy of mine I introduced to PCA went throught the same issue with his wife. I managed to get her involved also. Key point, her first event she really enjoyed, but did not think she would do it again. Two months later a car pulled out in front of her and instead of just launching on the brakes, she went from brakes back to steering input and avoided the car. I got a call the next day from her saying it was her new found confidence and training that avoided the accident. So she is signing up again this year. Most guys view DE as a form of gentlemen's racing. Step back and look at it from the other point of view and you will find the "E" is for education. A good DE driver is absolutely a better street driver and therefore safer on our highways. (0kay, we all can name a few yahoo's that drive fast on the track,street, dirt, etc.)
I had my wife participate in a Skip Barber driving school first. The program does alot to build confidence in a drivers awareness and evasive control of the car. Step 2 was DE events in a relatively easy to driver car. Along with DE events, she became buddies with other female drivers. It probably helped that Chris of CDOC brings her cup car to some of our events. It took awhile, but she really enjoys it now and there was never pressured to attend. Another buddy of mine I introduced to PCA went throught the same issue with his wife. I managed to get her involved also. Key point, her first event she really enjoyed, but did not think she would do it again. Two months later a car pulled out in front of her and instead of just launching on the brakes, she went from brakes back to steering input and avoided the car. I got a call the next day from her saying it was her new found confidence and training that avoided the accident. So she is signing up again this year. Most guys view DE as a form of gentlemen's racing. Step back and look at it from the other point of view and you will find the "E" is for education. A good DE driver is absolutely a better street driver and therefore safer on our highways. (0kay, we all can name a few yahoo's that drive fast on the track,street, dirt, etc.)
02-06-2006, 05:56 PM
#52
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OMG!!! have you been talking to my wife!????
Hey, all good points. especially the one about DEs and being surrounded by all sorts of pure weekend warriors. the racing can be safer, and more dangerous at the same time.
what it boils down to me is risk statistics. For one, i have more of those heart stopping close calls in the car driving my 30miles to work everyday, than i ever have racing. maybe the entire race is adrenaline and i just dont notice them as much.
How many of us have been using those cell phones, or looking at something else other than the road, only to be surprised by a tree, car, person, black ice, dog, squirrel, cat, deer, etc.
you take risks every day. the whole idea is to reduce risk and still have fun. to get better at certain sports, you have to learn how to do them. as you learn, there are many more risks until you get good. thats why learning with the right folk , who show you the right way, under the right conditions, is so important.
Mk
the french fry is more deadly than the car!
Hey, all good points. especially the one about DEs and being surrounded by all sorts of pure weekend warriors. the racing can be safer, and more dangerous at the same time.
what it boils down to me is risk statistics. For one, i have more of those heart stopping close calls in the car driving my 30miles to work everyday, than i ever have racing. maybe the entire race is adrenaline and i just dont notice them as much.
How many of us have been using those cell phones, or looking at something else other than the road, only to be surprised by a tree, car, person, black ice, dog, squirrel, cat, deer, etc.
you take risks every day. the whole idea is to reduce risk and still have fun. to get better at certain sports, you have to learn how to do them. as you learn, there are many more risks until you get good. thats why learning with the right folk , who show you the right way, under the right conditions, is so important.
Mk
the french fry is more deadly than the car!
Originally Posted by shiners780
The responses are interesting, however I think that 2 different questions are being answered.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
02-06-2006, 06:01 PM
#53
Originally Posted by shiners780
The responses are interesting, however I think that 2 different questions are being answered.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
No one denies that the danger exists. But the question doesn't ask if it's dangerous, but how dangerous is it? The only way to answer that question is with statistics. If we say that any activity that could result in serious injury or death is considered very dangerous simply because that possibility exists, then practically every activity we engage in would be considered very dangerous. People have died choking on food, therefore my eating dinner tonight is considered very dangerous. Obviously, that's not the case, but follows the same logic.
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
The original questions: Just how risky is this sport?
No one denies that the danger exists. But the question doesn't ask if it's dangerous, but how dangerous is it? The only way to answer that question is with statistics. If we say that any activity that could result in serious injury or death is considered very dangerous simply because that possibility exists, then practically every activity we engage in would be considered very dangerous. People have died choking on food, therefore my eating dinner tonight is considered very dangerous. Obviously, that's not the case, but follows the same logic.
Sure, statistics mean squat if you're the 1 in 1,000,000. But that doesn't mean the activity in question is generally considered highly risky, just that you're the unfortunate one. **** happens, and that's the (relatively small) risk we all assume.
02-06-2006, 06:08 PM
#55
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Bottom line, If your wife know just how risky the sport is and give you **** about it, racing is gonna be a big problem in your relationship. If she accepts it, you're one of the lucky ones.
02-06-2006, 07:00 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
My 2 cents. I consider a well run DE event to be a low risk activity. Note the emphasis on "well run". Racing is another matter. I make a firm distinction here since some in this thread seem to lump them together. Some DR events are more like racing than Driver Education and that's a risk factor.
For the novice, DE is about learning to drive properly, something that few owners of high performance cars know. For the experienced, it is an opportunity to enjoy practicing a skill. There is no prize for coming in first, there is no money awarded. The pleasure of driving well is the only reward.
Some people confuse DE with racing and indeed try to race other cars. A good event organizer will recognize this behavior and "adjust attitudes" as needed, in severe cases, eject the particpant(s) from the event.
I attribute our good safety record to the event organizers. the track chair - who is swift with a black flag for the wrong kind of driving. Pro flaggers who can spot a person driving over his/her head within a half lap, and a team of solid instructors who can reel in drivers who have the wrong idea of what it takes to drive fast safely.
Your safety on the track is mostly a function of how *you* drive. If you drive over your head you're more likely to have an accident. On the other hand if you drive like that on the track, your driving record on the streets is not likely to be exemplary either. The car is not dangerous. The track is not dangerous. The driver is dangerous ... or not.
For the novice, DE is about learning to drive properly, something that few owners of high performance cars know. For the experienced, it is an opportunity to enjoy practicing a skill. There is no prize for coming in first, there is no money awarded. The pleasure of driving well is the only reward.
Some people confuse DE with racing and indeed try to race other cars. A good event organizer will recognize this behavior and "adjust attitudes" as needed, in severe cases, eject the particpant(s) from the event.
I attribute our good safety record to the event organizers. the track chair - who is swift with a black flag for the wrong kind of driving. Pro flaggers who can spot a person driving over his/her head within a half lap, and a team of solid instructors who can reel in drivers who have the wrong idea of what it takes to drive fast safely.
Your safety on the track is mostly a function of how *you* drive. If you drive over your head you're more likely to have an accident. On the other hand if you drive like that on the track, your driving record on the streets is not likely to be exemplary either. The car is not dangerous. The track is not dangerous. The driver is dangerous ... or not.
02-06-2006, 07:10 PM
#57
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Tom, thanks. If you ever attend one of my driver's meetings you will hear "This is not racing. Timing is prohibited. Agressive driving will get you a black flag - two black flags and you're out. Any loss of control (note this does not mean a spin, one wheel, two wheels or three wheels off, it means a loss of control) will get you a black flag etc.
The speech is not so different from many others I'm sure. On the other hand we actually enforce the rules and our sell our events are a sell out because people feel safe.
Best,
The speech is not so different from many others I'm sure. On the other hand we actually enforce the rules and our sell our events are a sell out because people feel safe.
Best,
02-06-2006, 08:01 PM
#58
Racing = Very risky. It's not a question of "if" you will have an accident but simply "when". It's that simple. DE = Less risky. Staying at home reading about your buddies going racing - Extremely boring. Actually getting off the couch and experience any of lifes adventures - PRICELESS!
02-06-2006, 08:05 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Hey Todd, you could always do what I did. When the wife would make noises about stopping racing, I told her that it would give me time to take up a new hobby & lifelong desire - FLYING!
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She then tells me to enjoy my racing.
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She then tells me to enjoy my racing.
I think she views on-track driving as safer than flying. I'd be curious to hear her perspective on racing.
Either way, I never felt that flying was "unsafe". It is a risk but one that you can minimize by many of the same things that make driving safer: preparation, focus, respect for the sport, judgement, and maintenance of equipment.
I think people think flying, like shark attacks as mentioned earlier, is unsafe because most people don't "get it" and feel out of control. Once you're trained as a pilot you learn you are in control and that makes the experience feel a lot safer. The difference is if your wing falls off (rare!) you are not likely to survive, whereas if your wheel falls off your car you have a fighting chance.
02-06-2006, 08:15 PM
#60
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It is my opinion that in talking about the actual risks involved you are missing the boat. Whether it is racing or sky diving or going off Niagara Falls in a barrel doesn’t really matter.
Marriage is a partnership. Both parties agree to forego certain things in order to mutually achieve more than they could individually. One of those things that we give up is the ability to do whatever we want whenever we want to. So to the extent that you take the attitude that you have a right to race, I think you are being selfish.
On the other hand, to the extent that your wife is attempting to curtail those things you want to do and your own personal enjoyment of life I think she is also being selfish.
So I don’t think there is any right or wrong answer here. It is simply a matter of your coming to an agreement. If you made a mistake it was getting married before you had these issues properly worked out.
Personally, I could never imagine marrying someone that would attempt to restrict my own enjoyment of life. But I think I can also say with some certainty that I don’t have the type of marriage you have. Life is full of choices and compromise.
We make our choices and then we get to live with them.
Stephen
Marriage is a partnership. Both parties agree to forego certain things in order to mutually achieve more than they could individually. One of those things that we give up is the ability to do whatever we want whenever we want to. So to the extent that you take the attitude that you have a right to race, I think you are being selfish.
On the other hand, to the extent that your wife is attempting to curtail those things you want to do and your own personal enjoyment of life I think she is also being selfish.
So I don’t think there is any right or wrong answer here. It is simply a matter of your coming to an agreement. If you made a mistake it was getting married before you had these issues properly worked out.
Personally, I could never imagine marrying someone that would attempt to restrict my own enjoyment of life. But I think I can also say with some certainty that I don’t have the type of marriage you have. Life is full of choices and compromise.
We make our choices and then we get to live with them.
Stephen