Bill L Seifert

The latest SCCA fast track on line, said that the SCCA has lowered the minimum weight for the ITS 944 8v "83-88" from 2715 with driver to 2575 lbs. While I appreciate the effort, there is no way it is going to make the 944 competitive.

I was just wondering how many 944 drivers have gone from SCCA to NASA for either the 944 Cup or GTS, or even PBOC. If you have changed to one of those groups, or another for that matter, from SCCA, please "Private Message" me and let me know. If you know of anyone that has, but they do not do Rennlist, please give me their name, and what club they went to.

I am not going to use this information to try and convince the SCCA, it is just for my personal curiosity. I am finishing my 944S, so the rule change doen't really effect me. Though some knowledgable people do not think the 944S will be competitive, I respectfully disagree. I think the 944S, potentially is the equal of the BMW. (But, then again, I am usually wrong about predictions.) I still have my '83, but I hadn't planned on using it for SCCA much anyway, that's why I'm building the 944S.

Bill Seifert

1987 944S Race Car

924RACR

Did you notice that the E36 now gets a 27mm SIR???

You should see the whining...

Bill L Seifert

Actually Geo told me, I did not notice it on Fast Track, but a BMW turned a 1:39 something at Road Atlanta, at the ARRC. The fastest 944 I've ever seen there was Chris Camadella in a Milledge car, and he did a 1:45, I think. 140 lbs ain't good for 6 seconds. If my 944S doen't turn out, I may build a car like yours.

Hey, GTS Challenge did a Nashville race a couple of years ago, do they have any plans on coming back?


Bill

Geo

But don't forget that the BMW will no longer be running 1:39 at RA with the SIR. The BMW is being slowed up while the 944 is being sped up.

Also, I didn't say that the 944S will not be competitive. I said I didn't think it would be any more competitive than the 944 8v with the weight change. The hp/wt ratio +/- adjustments for other performance factors works out the same. The 944S does not have a lot of additional hp potential in IT trim.

Bill L Seifert

Geo

My mistake, sorry. But, I have had other people tell me they did not think it was going to be competitive. I base my feeling that it will be competitive on the basis of Kip Van Steenburg's car. Of course Kip would beat me if he were driving a Yugo. Maybe me thinking the 944S being a much faster car than the 8v is wishful thinking because I am building one.

Of course your feeling that, potentially, they could be equal, has been seen by me several times. Tracks like Gingerman, and Putnam Park, where the extra horsepower doesn't do as much, I have seen 8v 944's beat 944S's. Daytona is one place where the 944S would shine.

Please don't anyone get me wrong, I am not putting the SCCA down, they have hundreds of cars to keep track of. It is a monmumental job. ITA and 2815 lbs would have made me happy, but then again, I am building a 944S, so it won't effect me much.

I am, however curious as to how many people went to NASA, PBOC, etc. But I sure have no hard feelings toward SCCA, after all I am building a new car exclusively for SCCA. SCCA is where I started racing, and it is where I will finish.

Bill

Geo

Bill, no sweat.

IIRC, Kip has an E36, an RX-7, and a 944S.

Anyway, don't forget that the 8v weight has been figured exactly the same now as the 8v. In many ways that bodes well for the 8v. I think the trick is going to be getting down to weight, not because it cannot be done, but because the weight has been so high for so long. A lot of guys probably have built cars that are not efficient weight-wise.

I actually have a rather positive attitude towards this. I think it should be about 50 lbs lighter, but I think 50 lbs is effectively a margin of error in determining weight anyway. If I cannot out run someone for the sake of 50 lbs I feel I need to ge better.

Regarding ITS/ITA, I really felt the 8v was clearly an ITA car. However, that was before I found out what the 944 could get down to. Personally I'd rather race at a lower weight in the higher class if the car can be competitive.

I'm not really trying to argue with you. I just have a little different outlook on it.

Bill L Seifert

Oh, I agree.with you mostly..except, it is easier to add weight than take it off. But the idea of building a good race car, is prepare, prepare, prepare.

My car is overwieght by the 2715 standards. Last time I weighed it with 1/4 tank of gas it was 2740. Jud (a guy I race with) has his car light enough he had to add 50lbs to make 2715. He also weight 169lbs to my 195. But if he can do it I can too, but there ain't much I can do about the 25 lb advantage he has on personal weight. He's short, I'm tall. I guess I could give him a candy bar every time I see him.

I haven't taken out the A/C stuff except for the compressor and the thing in front of the radiator. I still have a lot of the console, and all the interior fans. So I could get a lot off that way.

We're sure going to give it a try.

By the way, Kip races a ITS Miata in the SE and the 944S in the northeast. His brother from Winter Park/Garden/something prepares the Miata, and Kip did the 944S, but I think Milledge did the engine. I think he sold the BMW.

SFreeman

Bill, I am going to let Kerry Singley, Scott Campbell and some of the other SE 944'ers know about this. I know some run BMWs so they can race SCCA but they also run na 944s in PCA/NASA. Maybe they can help you.

P.S. In think the fastest lap at RA in an I class 944 belongs to Kerry at 1:44:99!

Bill L Seifert

You gotta be kidding me. An I class 944 doing a 1:44, that darn car weighs 2779 without the driver. Kerry must be one heck of a driver. I'm not doubting you, but I gotta talk to that guy. Think of what kind of lap times he would turn at 2575 with driver.

All I can say is, wow!

By the way do you know the schedule for 944 Cup in the Atlanta, etc area.

Bill

SFreeman

Yes, he's nuts (as are most of the 944ers down here) and as I hear heard it was the "perfect lap." I sent him the link to this so hopefully he will show up and chime in.

Here's the link to NASA SE 944 Cup, scroll to the bottom for the schedule: http://southeast.44cup.com/

timo944

Bill,

First, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. I have gone sour on PCA and NASA, and am seriously thinking that SCCA is the best place to race. PCA is just overly pretentious. NASA is problematic because all of the 944's that are liiegal everywehere else show up. SCCA is pretty well controlled. I have also driven PBOC and it's a waste of time. Stick to SCCA.

About Kerry - the 1:44 time is mysterious. He has done a lot of development, but 1:44 is far beyond the norm. he's now in G with a 944 (euro motor, etc) and turning the same times.....

About the ARRC. yes, a BMW turned 1:39 and change, but look at 2nd place. An RX-7 with a 1:40, plus 4th place, a 240Z at 1:41.

The 944's have a lot of catching up to do. The other cars have done it, so maybe it's the car owneers who need to do more development?

Just my $0.02.

Will you be at the Feb Regional?

Tim

BTW first NASA race on March 17-18 at Road ATL. be there!

Bill L Seifert

Timo

Is the NASA race march 17-18 a 944 Cup race? We did the PBOC race at Barber in November, and it wasn't bad. Barber is a cool place, and there were 4 of us in R8, the 944 class. About SCCA, PCA and NASA, you know, when I was racing PCA, I couldn't wait to get back to SCCA, I guess the grass is always greener, etc, etc. I will defininetly stay with SCCA, but I would like to try a 944 Cup Race. You are right, SCCA does control things pretty well, and they have hundreds of different kinds of cars to keep up with. Overall they do a good job, we sometimes get hacked at them, but I think they do the best they can.

Thanks,

Bill

M758

My car is probably right at the 2575 level.

Right now I ballast it make 2600 with driver for 944 spec. I typically hit the scales at 2625 or so because I want to have a little margin. Right now I have 40 lbs of pure ballast and a racing passengers seat with slightly heavy mounting plates. I figure I have about 65-70lbs of easly removed weight with ballast and that seat and harness. I myself am 160lbs or so. That is still with all my undercoating and fully functioning power windows in both doors. I do have my headlights removed however.

I agree with Geo however that I would rather race a car at 2575lbs in faster class vs 2815 in a slower one. The lighter car will be easier on consumables like tires and brakes and easier on the suspension parts. That is one thing that keeps me away from PCA stock classes. I'd have to add in 350 lbs or so to make PCA weight. That is ALOT of weight and I can't believe the car would be as much fun to drive at 2950lbs as it is at 2600.

944 spec however is perfect for me as I can have very lightly prepared (or 80% effort) car compared to PCA or ITS rules and yet still be at 96-99% for 944 spec and have shot to win any race I enter. I simply to don't the budget to build or race a 100% to limit PCA Stock class or ITS 944.

Bill L Seifert

Timo,

I don't know what I was thinking, there were 5 in the R 8, still not a huge field, but it was fun. They are having another one the last weekend in Feb.


Bill

John Brown

Bill, another angle to answer your original question might be to state that I suspect the vast majority of the cars running 44Cup would not have gone SCCA in the first place. If SCCA beckoned we would not select the 44 to do it (with).