DE tech inspections question
01-13-2006, 12:13 AM
#31
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Sorry Dan but I think you missed my point. No one in his right mind will argue against having a car safety inspected prior to going on the track. It is PCA's (at least my local chapter's) insistence of having it done by certain shops only that I dislike. Of course it is your club and you set the rules and I'm OK with that. But let’s try to be honest in this discussion. It maybe for your level of comfort but it is also $$ for the "chosen" shops. I'm sure there are plenty of Porsche owners who don't mind this arrangement but I and a few others do.
01-13-2006, 01:48 AM
#32
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Sorry to hear about the "chosen shops" problem in your Region. In my region, every qualified shop that applies for the capability to do an inspection is approved....and there are many. Of course, if they are not qualified to do inspections, they are not approved, nor would I want to use them for such.
01-13-2006, 07:30 AM
#33
Antonio, no offence taken.
Bob W. probably just said what I intended to say in a much mo better way.
I have never turned down a qualified shop that was recommended by a member. If you trust that they are good enough to work on your car then they will probably get approved.
Obviously it's not quite that simple, but really, have you or your shop tried to get them listed?
Honestly there is no hidden agenda. Not that their telling me anyway!
Bob W. probably just said what I intended to say in a much mo better way.
I have never turned down a qualified shop that was recommended by a member. If you trust that they are good enough to work on your car then they will probably get approved.
Obviously it's not quite that simple, but really, have you or your shop tried to get them listed?
Honestly there is no hidden agenda. Not that their telling me anyway!
01-13-2006, 01:28 PM
#35
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I don't think anyone will argue that a tech inspection is necessary prior to a DE. Not doing an inspection would be foolish.
However, is it necessary to have a certified garage perform the tech, or would self-tech be acceptable under certain circumstances? My take is that a great deal of individuals are capable of self-tech, and should be allowed to do so.
Tech forms are rather cursory. They are a good starting point, but there are many items not on that list that should also be checked. Before every event, many people, myself included, take many parts off/apart to clean and inspect. Our pre-event check lists are much more thorough than the tech forms used by the PCA. Not everyone has the time, tools, knowledge, or inclination to do their own maintenance or checklist, and that's fine. Certified mechanics are an option to them. But self-tech should be an option to those who have the means to do so, and who choose to do so. I am a huge proponent of personal responsibility. It's my *** on the line; I'll check it myself, thank you. I will continue to haul the car to a certified mechanic prior to each event because I have to. At this point, it's purely academic since those items have already been checked.
Someone that does their own maintenance and repairs will have a complete understanding of the line items on the PCA tech forms. There is nothing on those forms that is that difficult or complicated to check. A lift is not necessary to perform a tech inspection; there is nothing you can do on a lift, that you can't do on jack stands. To suggest that a self-tech may cause someone to pass a questionable item is to also suggest that that person shouldn't be on the track to begin with. That person is dangerous and irresponsible, and would just as likely pull a bone-headed move on the track and put themselves or others into a dangerous situation.
How many people, especially newbies, get an official tech inspection then never look at their car again during an event? Probably many. What false sense of security has been established by having someone tell them that their car is all safe and ready to go? Since safety is a huge issue, why isn't self-tech included in the DE curriculum? Isn't the safety of their car just as important as learning the line, braking zones, and traffic processing? Green students should be required to attend a class during a DE which covers self-teching. What better way to encourage new drivers to take a pro-active interest in their own cars' safety issues? Educating new drivers how to self-tech would make them safer.
I suggest having one required certified tech inspection per season prior to any DE events. Then either a self-tech or certified tech required for every event. Students should always have a certified tech until soloed. Self-tech should also be a part of the DE curriculum. Whether someone chooses to self-tech or have an official tech should be a matter of personal choice. Having all drivers familiar with the issues regarding a technical inspection should be mandatory.
I have attended events where self-tech is accepted for everyone, and other events where self-tech is accepted for instructors. Obviously, there are hosting groups that realize the value of self-tech.
However, is it necessary to have a certified garage perform the tech, or would self-tech be acceptable under certain circumstances? My take is that a great deal of individuals are capable of self-tech, and should be allowed to do so.
Tech forms are rather cursory. They are a good starting point, but there are many items not on that list that should also be checked. Before every event, many people, myself included, take many parts off/apart to clean and inspect. Our pre-event check lists are much more thorough than the tech forms used by the PCA. Not everyone has the time, tools, knowledge, or inclination to do their own maintenance or checklist, and that's fine. Certified mechanics are an option to them. But self-tech should be an option to those who have the means to do so, and who choose to do so. I am a huge proponent of personal responsibility. It's my *** on the line; I'll check it myself, thank you. I will continue to haul the car to a certified mechanic prior to each event because I have to. At this point, it's purely academic since those items have already been checked.
Someone that does their own maintenance and repairs will have a complete understanding of the line items on the PCA tech forms. There is nothing on those forms that is that difficult or complicated to check. A lift is not necessary to perform a tech inspection; there is nothing you can do on a lift, that you can't do on jack stands. To suggest that a self-tech may cause someone to pass a questionable item is to also suggest that that person shouldn't be on the track to begin with. That person is dangerous and irresponsible, and would just as likely pull a bone-headed move on the track and put themselves or others into a dangerous situation.
How many people, especially newbies, get an official tech inspection then never look at their car again during an event? Probably many. What false sense of security has been established by having someone tell them that their car is all safe and ready to go? Since safety is a huge issue, why isn't self-tech included in the DE curriculum? Isn't the safety of their car just as important as learning the line, braking zones, and traffic processing? Green students should be required to attend a class during a DE which covers self-teching. What better way to encourage new drivers to take a pro-active interest in their own cars' safety issues? Educating new drivers how to self-tech would make them safer.
I suggest having one required certified tech inspection per season prior to any DE events. Then either a self-tech or certified tech required for every event. Students should always have a certified tech until soloed. Self-tech should also be a part of the DE curriculum. Whether someone chooses to self-tech or have an official tech should be a matter of personal choice. Having all drivers familiar with the issues regarding a technical inspection should be mandatory.
I have attended events where self-tech is accepted for everyone, and other events where self-tech is accepted for instructors. Obviously, there are hosting groups that realize the value of self-tech.
01-13-2006, 02:28 PM
#36
Mr. Excitement
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Remember this is for DE. There is a W I D E range of people and skills driving in DE. From racers that built their own tube cars to "I have my yard man wash it every Saturday" Where do you draw a line this guy is to self tech but the other guy is not?
I have seen some real scary stuff on track cars owned and driven by long time instructors and had even 0.0 green student tell me that his 911 turbo is only 3 years old and the brake fluid is just fine as he checked the level this a.m. The pads were almost vapor thin but they were fine too...for a 3 day event in a911 turbo. The car only had 8000 miles so they had to be.
If you cannot clearly figure out who can and WILL keep things safe and in proper condition and who can't or will not you have to cover everyone as we are all impacted (pun intended) by the mech condition of each others cars. I go off into the tires due to an 18 year old water hose on your 944 that you thought "looked" fine the last time you checked? Yes, you would not do that but someone else will and there needs to be a good clear way check for it. There is also the second set of eyes factor. Have you ever missed something that someone else pointed out to you? It is human nature to error so it is a good thing to have someone else do a double check.
Tech inspection, the second sat of eyes factor aside, is just a formality to some but it is helpfull to many as well.
I have seen some real scary stuff on track cars owned and driven by long time instructors and had even 0.0 green student tell me that his 911 turbo is only 3 years old and the brake fluid is just fine as he checked the level this a.m. The pads were almost vapor thin but they were fine too...for a 3 day event in a911 turbo. The car only had 8000 miles so they had to be.
If you cannot clearly figure out who can and WILL keep things safe and in proper condition and who can't or will not you have to cover everyone as we are all impacted (pun intended) by the mech condition of each others cars. I go off into the tires due to an 18 year old water hose on your 944 that you thought "looked" fine the last time you checked? Yes, you would not do that but someone else will and there needs to be a good clear way check for it. There is also the second set of eyes factor. Have you ever missed something that someone else pointed out to you? It is human nature to error so it is a good thing to have someone else do a double check.
Tech inspection, the second sat of eyes factor aside, is just a formality to some but it is helpfull to many as well.
Last edited by kurt M; 01-13-2006 at 03:09 PM.
01-13-2006, 03:06 PM
#37
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I've actually never been to a PCA-type of event yet. I wonder, if I did go (not likely since I don't actually own a Porsche), would the log book in my racecar suffice (we get teched at every race)? Just curious. I am lucky in one way, though -- the shop that routinely checks out my car is also a sponsor (Rebello Racing / Haag Performance). 
BW
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01-13-2006, 04:16 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey
Nope, and you'd be stuck in the "Green" run group as well...
That's probably the only time I can pass fast cars, anyway. HA! Seriously, though . . . the only problem with putting advanced drivers in a novice group because their *car* is slower seems to create more problems. I'm used to open passing and have no problem yielding respectfully. Put me in a novice group with restricted passing zones and my head my spin off my neck from the frustration as I will likely be at someone's bumper in the turns, only for them to blow ahead of me in the straights, and then I'll just catch up to them again in the turns. Maybe I should get a turbo charger, lol.BW
01-13-2006, 05:00 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by kurt M
Remember this is for DE. There is a W I D E range of people and skills driving in DE. From racers that built their own tube cars to "I have my yard man wash it every Saturday" Where do you draw a line this guy is to self tech but the other guy is not?
I have seen some real scary stuff on track cars owned and driven by long time instructors and had even 0.0 green student tell me that his 911 turbo is only 3 years old and the brake fluid is just fine as he checked the level this a.m. The pads were almost vapor thin but they were fine too...for a 3 day event in a911 turbo. The car only had 8000 miles so they had to be.
If you cannot clearly figure out who can and WILL keep things safe and in proper condition and who can't or will not you have to cover everyone as we are all impacted (pun intended) by the mech condition of each others cars. I go off into the tires due to an 18 year old water hose on your 944 that you thought "looked" fine the last time you checked? Yes, you would not do that but someone else will and there needs to be a good clear way check for it. There is also the second set of eyes factor. Have you ever missed something that someone else pointed out to you? It is human nature to error so it is a good thing to have someone else do a double check.
Tech inspection, the second sat of eyes factor aside, is just a formality to some but it is helpfull to many as well.
I have seen some real scary stuff on track cars owned and driven by long time instructors and had even 0.0 green student tell me that his 911 turbo is only 3 years old and the brake fluid is just fine as he checked the level this a.m. The pads were almost vapor thin but they were fine too...for a 3 day event in a911 turbo. The car only had 8000 miles so they had to be.
If you cannot clearly figure out who can and WILL keep things safe and in proper condition and who can't or will not you have to cover everyone as we are all impacted (pun intended) by the mech condition of each others cars. I go off into the tires due to an 18 year old water hose on your 944 that you thought "looked" fine the last time you checked? Yes, you would not do that but someone else will and there needs to be a good clear way check for it. There is also the second set of eyes factor. Have you ever missed something that someone else pointed out to you? It is human nature to error so it is a good thing to have someone else do a double check.
Tech inspection, the second sat of eyes factor aside, is just a formality to some but it is helpfull to many as well.
Regarding water hose; all the tech form states is that there are no leaks. That is a cursory examination at best. Not good enough as far as I'm concerned. Personal responsibility takes that inspection a bit further.
Bonster: Given your experience, you would probably be given a check-out ride with an instructor. With the instructor's approval, you would most likely be bumped immediately into a higher run group.
01-13-2006, 05:17 PM
#41
Race Director
Originally Posted by Bonster
***Oh great, that's all those guys need. Presuming that 'green' is the novice group, I suspect it would upset some guys in Porsches getting passed by a Miata.
Some PCA regions allow non-p-cars to run with them at DE's. In my region (North NJ) you'll see a few non-Porsches, especially at the farther away track where we don't sell out to PCA members. For it - it's nice to see some other marques out there.
-Z-man.
01-13-2006, 05:32 PM
#42
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That was the point. They did not.
They and many others of like kind were observed over the past three years worth of Pre event tech inspections, not a the track. (I am the a chief of tech for Potomac) One good thing about pre track inspections is that if there is something that needs attention you have some time to fix it, not just go home or loose a days driving looking for parts and tools aa with an at track inspection or on track failure.
No leaks is one thing, hard as a rock and showing excessive cracking when flexed, cuts, bulges or something like a home depot type plumbing band clamp cutting 90% through is another. Goes for gas, oil and brake lines too.
The idea is for everyone to go and have as much uninterupted driving and fun and to cut down on unwanted failures or on track events. when something is found the normal reaction is "How can we or what is needed to fix this" Not "You failed, have a nice day, next" "
Potomac puts drivers in group based on driver for the most part. I am in Black with many turbos, GT3s and and the like driving a well worn 90 hp car. If you get put in too slow a group it gets fixed quick. vice versa too.
They and many others of like kind were observed over the past three years worth of Pre event tech inspections, not a the track. (I am the a chief of tech for Potomac) One good thing about pre track inspections is that if there is something that needs attention you have some time to fix it, not just go home or loose a days driving looking for parts and tools aa with an at track inspection or on track failure.
No leaks is one thing, hard as a rock and showing excessive cracking when flexed, cuts, bulges or something like a home depot type plumbing band clamp cutting 90% through is another. Goes for gas, oil and brake lines too.
The idea is for everyone to go and have as much uninterupted driving and fun and to cut down on unwanted failures or on track events. when something is found the normal reaction is "How can we or what is needed to fix this" Not "You failed, have a nice day, next" "
Potomac puts drivers in group based on driver for the most part. I am in Black with many turbos, GT3s and and the like driving a well worn 90 hp car. If you get put in too slow a group it gets fixed quick. vice versa too.
01-13-2006, 05:35 PM
#43
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I get you, Shiners . . . it's a 'you're new to our club so we wanna make sure you can do what you claim you can do.' Very much like BMWCCA (though, with them I never had to do a newbie run because I was actually instructing -- I was very impressed with the M5!). I know better to mind my p's and q's with a new group. Plus, frankly, I don't like hotdogging in any run group, especially not the novice group -- folks are still driving the cars in front and behind them a lot at that level. Honestly, I prefer open passing though, as I've grown used to it with racing and several private open track groups are using open passing in the advanced group these days. I've run in mixed classes where NASA had the Spec Miata, the PS2, and USTCC cars all racing at the same time. So yeah, I'm used to being passed in places that would make a novice driver's eyes go behind his head.
Z-Man . . . we started "T.E.A.M Racing" as an all-Miata group -- it was called "Track Events, All Miatas." Now we substitute "All" with "Alotta" (the 'racing' part is just because it's a catchy title -- everyone is made aware that we don't actually race). We, too, enjoy seeing other marquees show up. Given the bad rap that Miatas have often received over the years, it's nice when you hear stuff like, "Man, those little cars can eat the turns!" Lol. The only other car I've driven that would out run a Miata in a turn is probably the Lotus Elise. WOW. I'll never forget driving that car. Makes me wish I had $50k laying around . . . unfortuantely, most of my spare change goes into racing. Tough life.
BW
Z-Man . . . we started "T.E.A.M Racing" as an all-Miata group -- it was called "Track Events, All Miatas." Now we substitute "All" with "Alotta" (the 'racing' part is just because it's a catchy title -- everyone is made aware that we don't actually race). We, too, enjoy seeing other marquees show up. Given the bad rap that Miatas have often received over the years, it's nice when you hear stuff like, "Man, those little cars can eat the turns!" Lol. The only other car I've driven that would out run a Miata in a turn is probably the Lotus Elise. WOW. I'll never forget driving that car. Makes me wish I had $50k laying around . . . unfortuantely, most of my spare change goes into racing. Tough life.
BW
01-13-2006, 08:16 PM
#44
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Every time you enter a track event, race or DE, a careful scrutiny of the car by well qualified, second set of eyes is essential. Every time. No exceptions. You owe it to yourself and to every other driver on the track.
01-13-2006, 08:32 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by shiners780
My take is that a great deal of individuals are capable of self-tech, and should be allowed to do so. I suggest having one required certified tech inspection per season prior to any DE events. .