This was in SCCA before the miata became a spec series and they got lumped together with us. The majority of them ended up being (please lets not read "EVERYONE" in this post) young punks on Daddy's money, who had 1 skippy B race school or carting as a child under their belt. Thet weren't paying the bills so it gave the green light to be an animal on the track. And to boot, the cheif stewards of the race rarely punished a driver for OVERLY agressive driving.

 

Maybe things have changed, but to be competative, you MUST be overly agressive. I used to do 5-6 events a year (3 days each at a time), and I am not assuming anything, I've been hit on TEST DAYS! Tell me thats the way to be on track. You go to enough events and it doesn't take but a session or two before the grumbles begin about who "has already started driving like an A**hole". Again, this is for a piece of wood, there should be some basic rules of engagement that actually get enforced in club racing! PCA maybe different, but not SCCA in the Southeast.
And yes, Todd has a great attitude about going in. I just think he or anyone else should be fully aware of what they may be involved in, before he gets there. Read posts below your quote of me to see that others back up my "getting run over" comments.
My issue is about RESPECT, or should I say lack of when it comes to IT racing. There will always be faster and slower drivers......its how we treat each other when encountering that faster or slower driver that no one cares about.......until you do DE's.

 

I race in IT and have never been touched, even in a nasty race in the rain at 40* (where I landed on the podium after starting dead last due to qualifying issues). Last year I went to the ARRC to observe (I'm a member of the IT Advisory Committee) and saw very little contact all weekend, and this race was for all the marbles as it's the IT national championship.

I'm not denying your experience, but just saying it seems to be the exception other than Spec Pinata which is road racing's equivilent to roller derby.

 

I have also found racers to be, for the most part, considerate and competent drivers. Just dive in. Take your time learning how to pass (something DE does not address). Better to learn how to be passed in the early stages. I don't mean to move out of the way, but to allow someone to pass you while loosing the least amout of your oun momentum is an art in itself.

 

Chris - you should try some PCA races because I think it is very different.

 

This brings up another question I had about racing against cars not in your class. If I do show up in a completely uncompetitive GT class car, but I'm running the same speed as 'E' and 'F' cars, is it considered bad form to race against these guys? In other words, if I have a 'E' car behind me and one in front, am I expected to let the guy behind by to go after the guy in front? I don't mind being uncompentitive in class (well, at least at the beginning), but I would like to have someone to race against.

 

Well I cannot speak for anyother series, but 944 spec is not like that. If guys are slow or off the pace our fast guys tend to work with them to get them up to speed. I myself have taken practice time to do lead/follow drills with other racers and give specific race line instruction during DE sessions.

My goal in the class is to have every one "up to speed" as that makes racing more fun. Once guys get up to speed things change. I still will be friends and will hang out in the paddock with them, but they need to learn race craft on their own. That is to say if they have the speed to run at the front great, but I need to still stay one step ahead and keep a few tricks up my sleeve. It IS racing after all.

For us.... "that guy" is the idoit who thinks they are greatest, but really drive like an as$. They want to race everyone in practice rather than just letting traffic by. They are the one that race you as you lap them and they are the ones that don't seem to car about banging fenders.

Our model racers come in two type.

One is clean, and fast. They race hard on the track, but are curtious to lap traffic (both faster/slower). In practice they do their thing a don't hold up others. In qualfying the run their fast laps and make way for other to do the same. During races they race hard and close and don't make things easy, but also will give up place to prevent contact as the end of the day CLEAN racing is their goal.

The second type is just like the first exect they are slower. This slowness comes from being on the steep part of the learning curve. These guys are humble and looking to learn to do thing right. They respect the fast guys and see them as potential for what they can do rather than "cheaters or unsafe drivers". Given enough time and some natural skill they will get faster and rise to the top.

While I find competition fun and same time I'd rather like the guys I race with. The reason is when the racing is over it was all for the fun and the best part is taking about who did what to who AFTER the race with friends. If you are alone and just go home you miss a big part of the racing fun. This does not mean every racer in your class will or should be your friend, but have 3-5 close friends racing with you makes the weekend so much more fun.

 

In generally I would say no. If you are in front, you got there for a reason. If you see the lead E car come around to lap you, then yes, I think you should let them by.

Btw, which GT class would you be in? If you are in GT2, you typically would not run against E or F cars. If you are in GT3 or 4, you would run with D nearly all of the time, and E most of the time.

 

Very bad form. Imagine you are the guy in E and you are trying to go as fast as possible, and this guy is in front of you trying to keep you behind (basically slowing you down). You may be ruining his race.

 

I haven't done enough reading of the CR rules yet, but I think I'll be GT-3 (3.4L engine).

 

Scott,
Judging by the classifieds looks like you are making a move.

Great thread. Really leads me to thinking not just about wether or not to race (I've been comtemplating it) but what is the appropriate venue, car and class to participate in. I think I am in the same boat as many others here with a well prepped DE car that won't be a good 'race' car. In my case a 993 with LWF and G50/21 tranny that, I believe, would move me up in class.

Further I wonder....if I did go to an SC or 944 race set up would I miss the power and other attibutes of my 993? I know that, at this point, I can be faster in the car I currentley have..that is to say that I am not turning the times that the car is probabley capable of. I had a great experience running the Cups/Saucers event at the Glen last spring with Hudson Valley where a well prepped 964 blew by me in the back straight (I well known club racer at the wheel but I don't recall his name) meaning that, obviuosley, he was faster (much) from T1 all the way up throught the esses. Every time I think about getting 'more' car I remember that moment.

Perhaps this should be opened up in a new thread...cup cars vs. DE cars vs. SC's, 944's etc for track use. I have to think that it is always better to buy rather than build. I think, for example, the RSA for sale in the classifieds looks like a great example of a well sorted out racer. No affiliation etc.

Jamie

 

Well,
I'd guess it is dependant on situation.

My GT4S car is not competitive in GT4S unless I have other 944 spec type cars to run with. However I can run hard with H, G, and some times F cars.

Now should I? Well that depends on how many cars there are in those other classes and how close the driver is to them. I spend my last PCA race tight on the rear of a G 911SC with another one behind me. Those were the only two of the 3 G cars at that race. In front the G car I was chasing was a GT4S 944 spec type car. Well my intention was to chase down the GT4S car, but the G car was between us. I could not pass the G car since he had a bit more hp, but held me up just a bit in a number of corners. This allowed my GT4S competitior gain about 6-7 car lengths. So I worked like mad tring to get around the G car to no avail. All the while trying to keep the other G car behind me. Why? Well If I let the G car behind me through how would I ever pass the one in front and chase down that GT4S car?

So we ended up racing mixed class.

I felt it was OK since I had a target not far off. Now had the G car in front of me been the only G car around and my GT4S comeptitior was not there... Then I'd race the G car for fun. Who was he going to race with anyway.

On the flip side had these two G cars been racing hard to get in the way would be wrong.

I have done plenty of mixed class racing where you try to put other class cars between you. I have also been on the recieveing end where lone other class cars seem get in the way and want to race. Some times it it fun some times not.

The only thing the REALLY BURNS me is the slower driver in the high hp car.

I have raced with Vipers before. I mean really... the guy in the Viper has some 300 more hp than I do yet for some reason wants to race me. Well the problem is that I am often chasing or wanting to pull a gap on class competition. Instead I get hosed by some guy who has plenty of hp to keep me stuck behind him on the straights, but the forces me to go his pace in the corners. This can kill my lap times by 2-3 seconds and it is VERY hard to pass. Heck sometime I get a run and pass them only to see them come back and try to pass me again. That really pisses me off since they have no skill at all. It seems strange, but that happens quite a bit mostly due to qualfying. What happens is some guy takes his lap and I qual one to 3 spots in front. At The drop of the green they use HP to rocket by. Then take the corners slow. So eventhough I can turn a faster clean lap they get infront at the start and hold me up.


So I guess what I am saying is racing out of class cars is not ideal, but being right or wrong is often not a "clear cut" right or wrong move.

If in doubt you can always walk over and ask.

 

And thats fair. Like I said, these are my experiences in Southeast IT racing just as the RX-7 were waining<? and the Spec Pinatas as you call them ( ) were coming into the scene. Our drivers meetings....each and every time, were like verbatum. "You guys need to watch it out there, to much contact.....yada, yada". It never changed and the stewards did nothing about it. I just got tired of it! I am just as aggressive and competative as the next guy, but I would never punt you off track to get by.

 

I had actually considered doing the '44 cup series, but ended up selling the 44 (it was to nice to cut up I thought), and I already had the Scirocco. Now if I could sell the 'Roc, I'd be in PCA racing........but.........

hey, can I supercharge the 'Roc and race it PCA? It'd woop ***

 

Jamie,

As you know, I went from high HP to low HP, and it is a blast. Sure, I would be lying to you if I said there weren't times when you miss the HP, BUT, having less HP than nearly everyone on the track is a huge motivating factor, it is enormously satisfying to pass higher HP cars, and it give you a built in excuse as to why nearly everybody else "can" pass you (e.g., what do you expect, I only have 150 HP).

I wouldn't consider low HP to be a negative quality for your first race car. I sought a low HP car for many reasons, including a great spec class to race with, the additional relative safety of lower speeds, and the opportunity to learn how to be a better driver through momentum.

The deeper my addiction to this sport grows, the more I have come to believe that it is less about what you bring to drive, and more about how you drive what you brought but I still want a GT3 or 996/997 cup car.

TD