Larry Herman

I have to agree 100% with RJay. What I learned autocrossing was very significant, and it allows me to run much closer to the limit with confidence. Many have even commented about how relaxed I appear when driving ***** out. And when the car gets a little out of shape and I recover in an instant they always wonder how I learned that. At an autocross...12 years of them.

Gator_86_951

Here is the initial statement in post #1. Clearly he is saying I didn't like sitting around.
What I am saying is that when somebody says "I don't like AX because i don't want to sit around in a parking lot," the automatic reaction out of the AX crowd shouldn't be to go all skill **** on that person. That is what irritates me. What you said wasn't crazy skill ****, but this kind of thing happens all the time.

I would AX more if I had an NA car. But I don't. I am just an idle by-stander that gets irritated when somebody jumps down someone else's throat for stated a PREFERENCE.

By analogy:
Person A: "I don't like eating asparugus"
Crazy Esparugus Advocate: "Well clearly you are completely incorrect. You have to eat asparugus. It has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for folacin which is necessary for blood cell formation, growth, and prevention of liver disease."

Larry Herman

Gator, I am not sure that people are really jumping down your (and other) throats for not liking autocrossing. I don't think that that is the issue at all; you can like or dislike what you want. It is for downplaying it's importance relative to driving and car control. Either karting or autocrossing, you cannot learn those type of car control skills any other way. If you think so you are just kidding yourself, or you are one in a million. That is the point. DE drivers ask "how can I get better?" and one of the the answers is lots of autocrossing. But that is not what they want to hear, hence the point of this thread. BTW, my oldest son drives a 951, and if he hadn't hit a cone on his last run he would have been 2nd fastest overall at our last autocross. Not bad for a turbo car, huh.

James-man

My kid says "No way - I hate that" when asked to try food he has never tasted before.

Hmmm.... Looks funny, smells funny, may even sound funny, but until you have actually tasted it...

James-man

I don't believe that I've ever never gotten the same adrenaline rush at the track as I did during AX. I AXed a bit in the 90s and on occasion, after a run, I would have the shakes for a bit before the excitement subsided. After a super DE run, I am pretty calm, but the words cool, awesome repeatedly strike my brain. Or maybe just

AX is absolutely not a spectator event. You cannot feel the peak of excitement unless you are there.

I now enjoy participating at DE events. I haven't AXed in years, but would suspect that the only thing that would really appeal to me would be that AX is a competition. I would like to go to an AX again just to see if they are still fun for me. Hasn't been a priority. Wonder why? Too many track events on the calendar!

James-man

As for as motorsports are concerned, 10 years of AXing is much better than say 10 years of playing Donkey Kong in an arcade.

Would 10 years of DE be better for track driving skills than 10 years of AX. I don't see how the answer wouldn't be yes.

BUT, as serious athletes do cross training, I have to wonder how broad of an approach we take for expanding high speed driving skills. Once you have proficiency, how do you pursue excellence?

Don't flame me yet. I am still working on proficiency!

Gator_86_951

My point was merely that the autocross reaction happens too frequently with too much zeal for my taste. In a lot of cases it is like you are insulting somebody's religion or something.

FWIW the main reason why I don't autocross very frequently is because we don't really have it much down here. I also don't have a place other then above my bathroom for my tires here @ school. And when I am going to take the day off from school (which rarely happens now-a-days), I would rather it be for a DE and not for an AX.

Here is something else that always sounds lame:
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed. Christ, you might as well poke somebody in the eye. Well, the person that told me that ended up being completly wrong. I beat his time in his own car by like a 4 tenths of a second I think. I had never even driven his car before, or gone to an AX. I had gotten about 4 hours of sleep the night before and spent the previous day with dan of 944Fest @ a DE in mid-ohio. I flew from columbus and drove directly to the AX.

Larry Herman

Well, based on 12 years of serious autocrossing, followed by 12 years of DEs, and then 10 more of DEs & Clubracing, I'd say that 5 years of autocrossing, followed by 5 years of DEs would be the best combination, and your skills would be superior to either of your examples.

Larry Herman

Well, some autocrossers can be quite insecure because their sport is considered to be at the bottom of the automotive pecking order. I knew a multi-time national champion autocrosser who would become livid at the mention of DEs. Maybe he was a little "cultish" about it. Who knows?
Well I wouldn't quite say that either. But it is fairly evident to me and other experienced instructors that most good autocrossers become good track drivers, and it does not work the other way nearly as well.

Gator_86_951

Exactly. See. We see eye to eye. The cultish attitude is what I was referencing. Good phrasing. I just had to explain myself a little better I guess. Now I feel better.

I just got irritated by his "absolute bar" kind of language. But, then again, I ask for precision too much I guess. It is like saying if you score 1100 on the SAT you can never become a good student.

I wish I could AX my car more often, but I really can't. Hopefully next semester will be better, but my life is people asking for my time, so probably not. I was thinking about buying a shifter kart. They recently built a go-kart track somewhere around here. I think it is in Ocala. I would have to get a trailer hitch for the 951. How awesome would that be!

RJay

Well, I had been sitting here with my morning coffee, luxuriant in a day off, preparing yet another response, but I see others have already made the case well. I have no idea of your experience level, but having a Turbo is more of a reason to AX extensively, not less! Perhaps you're gifted or have worked all this out already, but for the audience with 930s or 951s who haven't, AX offers an excellent opportunity to learn how to find strategies for maintaining boost, develop left foot braking and practising going deep on the throttle in anticpation of when the boost will come on. Get these things wrong on track and you hit a wall. At an airfield? Dust yourself off and try again. I'm concerned about the picture presented to those novices who look to this board and others to help them figure out how to get better both safely and quickly. Why? Well, through an odd quirk of fate, something to do with not being able to say No, I will ascend to the post of VP of Activities for NER. Here in the Northeast there have been three deaths this year on three separate tracks all of which we run on. Given that the circumstances of these tragedies remain somewhat shrouded in mystery, it is unknown whether CC skills or a lack thereof played a role in any of the incidents or not. For me, it doesn't matter. These events underscore that driving fast on track is serious business and **** does happen. I will continue to advocate strongly that novices do our CC clinics and a few AXs if not prior to, than coincident with attending DE. Just like I'll advocate that students watch on track video, study track maps, talk with instructors and generally recognise that driving at a race track entails certain risks and as such requires more preparation that simply showing up and driving. We have not been nor will be in future, as you might say, ***** about it. There is no more a requirement to attend these venues before going to WGI than there is not to lift in the esses once you get there. Both however are equally prudent.

J P Stein

Actually, that paraphrases a quote from Randy Probst who knows a thing or 2 about both. He was talking of the value of AX and possibly some other observations he has made.

I did an instructor gig at an Driver Training for DE guys. It was on a AX sized venue so they grabbed some AX guys to help out. To give the DE guys due credit, they recognized that fact that there was something to learn.....after riding thru the works with a few AX guys. IMO, to learn you gotta put your ego in your pocket for a bit.

I once had a guy go 4 sec qiucker than I( in my car )
on a 50 sec AX course. I've had multiple folks in my car do it since, but I'm closing the gap on the SOBs.

Gator_86_951

Post #54 pretty much sums up what I was attempting to say. Although I chose my words carefully I guess it wasn't very evident. Maybe if my login name was different my post would be read with more clarity. Sorry for having usurped your discussion and I'll fight my war against the autcross ***** (which clearly none of you are) in another venue. Note I am drawing a distinction between mere advocacy (what you guys do, which is clear now) and the crazy defense mechanism referenced in post #54. The skill set part of the discussion was never part of what I was saying, I was merely pointed to the immediate backlash you get out of some of the people in the AX community when the discussion comes up, which happens pretty much constantly.

I also want to thank whomever for assuming that I am a beginning driver. FWIW there is no ego involved in any of this motorsport thing for me. I couldn't care less if I am slower or faster then somebody else. I am out to challenge myself. I'll always be the first person to point somebody by, and the first to pull off in the event of a train @ a DE and won't think anything of it. I guess that makes me an aberation. The day I start validating myself through motorsport is the day I stop doing it.

Bull

Amen!

Paul902

That's too bad.... At MCO we regularly get 8 runs and I know of one event where everybody got 15 runs! No waiting around to speak of. We have a really great auto timing system and usually can run two cars on the course at once.