Track Events vs. Autocross
#46
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I have to agree 100% with RJay. What I learned autocrossing was very significant, and it allows me to run much closer to the limit with confidence. Many have even commented about how relaxed I appear when driving ***** out. And when the car gets a little out of shape and I recover in an instant they always wonder how I learned that. At an autocross...12 years of them.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
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2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#47
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Originally Posted by RJay
....The initial question here was around the value returned by AXing for the amount of time spent. (Removed well articulated argument for the value of skills attained at AX).
Originally Posted by RXDOC
I went to my very first autocross ever (as a spectator). Some nice cars and great bunch of guys. But come on, it was like watching paint dry! I was bored out of my mind. At the drivers meeting they told every one they would get three (3) runs! That's 3 X 2.5min! That's about 8 min. of driving in 8 hours. I know that autocross helps you with car control and tracking, but the excitement and energy is just not there!
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
I would AX more if I had an NA car. But I don't. I am just an idle by-stander that gets irritated when somebody jumps down someone else's throat for stated a PREFERENCE.
Originally Posted by Z-man
Understood. AX is like asparagus - it is definately an aquired taste! Some dig it, others don't.
Person A: "I don't like eating asparugus"
Crazy Esparugus Advocate: "Well clearly you are completely incorrect. You have to eat asparugus. It has 60% of the recommended daily allowance for folacin which is necessary for blood cell formation, growth, and prevention of liver disease."
#48
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Gator, I am not sure that people are really jumping down your (and other) throats for not liking autocrossing. I don't think that that is the issue at all; you can like or dislike what you want. It is for downplaying it's importance relative to driving and car control. Either karting or autocrossing, you cannot learn those type of car control skills any other way. If you think so you are just kidding yourself, or you are one in a million. That is the point. DE drivers ask "how can I get better?" and one of the the answers is lots of autocrossing. But that is not what they want to hear, hence the point of this thread. BTW, my oldest son drives a 951, and if he hadn't hit a cone on his last run he would have been 2nd fastest overall at our last autocross. Not bad for a turbo car, huh.
#49
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My kid says "No way - I hate that" when asked to try food he has never tasted before.
Hmmm.... Looks funny, smells funny, may even sound funny, but until you have actually tasted it...
Hmmm.... Looks funny, smells funny, may even sound funny, but until you have actually tasted it...
#50
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Let's talk about fun for a minute
Originally Posted by RXDOC
I went to my very first autocross ever (as a spectator). Some nice cars and great bunch of guys. But come on, it was like watching paint dry! I was bored out of my mind. At the drivers meeting they told every one they would get three (3) runs! That's 3 X 2.5min! That's about 8 min. of driving in 8 hours. I know that autocross helps you with car control and tracking, but the excitement and energy is just not there!
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
AX is absolutely not a spectator event. You cannot feel the peak of excitement unless you are there.
I now enjoy participating at DE events. I haven't AXed in years, but would suspect that the only thing that would really appeal to me would be that AX is a competition. I would like to go to an AX again just to see if they are still fun for me. Hasn't been a priority. Wonder why? Too many track events on the calendar!
#51
Race Car
Originally Posted by Bull
Clearly, one can't expect many, if any, of those who spend some serious time or years autoXing to say...nope, I wasted my time. Autoxing wasn't a big help. Sure it "helps:". Is it significant????????
Would 10 years of DE be better for track driving skills than 10 years of AX. I don't see how the answer wouldn't be yes.
BUT, as serious athletes do cross training, I have to wonder how broad of an approach we take for expanding high speed driving skills. Once you have proficiency, how do you pursue excellence?
Don't flame me yet. I am still working on proficiency!
#52
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Gator, I am not sure that people are really jumping down your (and other) throats for not liking autocrossing. I don't think that that is the issue at all; you can like or dislike what you want. It is for downplaying it's importance relative to driving and car control. Either karting or autocrossing, you cannot learn those type of car control skills any other way. If you think so you are just kidding yourself, or you are one in a million. That is the point. DE drivers ask "how can I get better?" and one of the the answers is lots of autocrossing. But that is not what they want to hear, hence the point of this thread. BTW, my oldest son drives a 951, and if he hadn't hit a cone on his last run he would have been 2nd fastest overall at our last autocross. Not bad for a turbo car, huh.
FWIW the main reason why I don't autocross very frequently is because we don't really have it much down here. I also don't have a place other then above my bathroom for my tires here @ school. And when I am going to take the day off from school (which rarely happens now-a-days), I would rather it be for a DE and not for an AX.
Here is something else that always sounds lame:
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed. Christ, you might as well poke somebody in the eye. Well, the person that told me that ended up being completly wrong. I beat his time in his own car by like a 4 tenths of a second I think. I had never even driven his car before, or gone to an AX. I had gotten about 4 hours of sleep the night before and spent the previous day with dan of 944Fest @ a DE in mid-ohio. I flew from columbus and drove directly to the AX.
#53
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Originally Posted by James-man
Would 10 years of DE be better for track driving skills than 10 years of AX. I don't see how the answer wouldn't be yes.
#54
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Originally Posted by Gator_86_951
My point was merely that the autocross reaction happens too frequently with too much zeal for my taste. In a lot of cases it is like you are insulting somebody's religion or something.
Here is something else that always sounds lame:
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed.
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed.
#55
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Well, some autocrossers can be quite insecure because their sport is considered to be at the bottom of the automotive pecking order. I knew a multi-time national champion autocrosser who would become livid at the mention of DEs. Maybe he was a little "cultish" about it. Who knows?
Well I wouldn't quite say that either. But it is fairly evident to me and other experienced instructors that most good autocrossers become good track drivers, and it does not work the other way nearly as well.
Well I wouldn't quite say that either. But it is fairly evident to me and other experienced instructors that most good autocrossers become good track drivers, and it does not work the other way nearly as well.
I just got irritated by his "absolute bar" kind of language. But, then again, I ask for precision too much I guess. It is like saying if you score 1100 on the SAT you can never become a good student.
I wish I could AX my car more often, but I really can't. Hopefully next semester will be better, but my life is people asking for my time, so probably not. I was thinking about buying a shifter kart. They recently built a go-kart track somewhere around here. I think it is in Ocala. I would have to get a trailer hitch for the 951. How awesome would that be!
#56
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Well, I had been sitting here with my morning coffee, luxuriant in a day off, preparing yet another response, but I see others have already made the case well.
I have no idea of your experience level, but having a Turbo is more of a reason to AX extensively, not less! Perhaps you're gifted or have worked all this out already, but for the audience with 930s or 951s who haven't, AX offers an excellent opportunity to learn how to find strategies for maintaining boost, develop left foot braking and practising going deep on the throttle in anticpation of when the boost will come on. Get these things wrong on track and you hit a wall. At an airfield? Dust yourself off and try again.
I'm concerned about the picture presented to those novices who look to this board and others to help them figure out how to get better both safely and quickly. Why? Well, through an odd quirk of fate, something to do with not being able to say No, I will ascend to the post of VP of Activities for NER. Here in the Northeast there have been three deaths this year on three separate tracks all of which we run on. Given that the circumstances of these tragedies remain somewhat shrouded in mystery, it is unknown whether CC skills or a lack thereof played a role in any of the incidents or not. For me, it doesn't matter. These events underscore that driving fast on track is serious business and **** does happen. I will continue to advocate strongly that novices do our CC clinics and a few AXs if not prior to, than coincident with attending DE. Just like I'll advocate that students watch on track video, study track maps, talk with instructors and generally recognise that driving at a race track entails certain risks and as such requires more preparation that simply showing up and driving. We have not been nor will be in future, as you might say, ***** about it. There is no more a requirement to attend these venues before going to WGI than there is not to lift in the esses once you get there. Both however are equally prudent.
Originally Posted by Gator_86_951
I would AX more if I had an NA car. But I don't.
Originally Posted by Gator_86_951
I am just an idle by-stander that gets irritated when somebody jumps down someone else's throat for stated a PREFERENCE.
#57
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Originally Posted by Gator_86_951
Here is something else that always sounds lame:
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed. Christ, you might as well poke somebody in the eye. .
A good autocross always a good track driver, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Why the hell would you say that? It is like they are trying to make somebody angry. I would never say something that pointed. Christ, you might as well poke somebody in the eye. .
I did an instructor gig at an Driver Training for DE guys. It was on a AX sized venue so they grabbed some AX guys to help out. To give the DE guys due credit, they recognized that fact that there was something to learn.....after riding thru the works with a few AX guys. IMO, to learn you gotta put your ego in your pocket for a bit.
I once had a guy go 4 sec qiucker than I( in my car )
on a 50 sec AX course. I've had multiple folks in my car do it since, but I'm closing the gap on the SOBs.
#58
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Post #54 pretty much sums up what I was attempting to say. Although I chose my words carefully I guess it wasn't very evident. Maybe if my login name was different my post would be read with more clarity. Sorry for having usurped your discussion and I'll fight my war against the autcross ***** (which clearly none of you are) in another venue. Note I am drawing a distinction between mere advocacy (what you guys do, which is clear now) and the crazy defense mechanism referenced in post #54. The skill set part of the discussion was never part of what I was saying, I was merely pointed to the immediate backlash you get out of some of the people in the AX community when the discussion comes up, which happens pretty much constantly.
I also want to thank whomever for assuming that I am a beginning driver. FWIW there is no ego involved in any of this motorsport thing for me. I couldn't care less if I am slower or faster then somebody else. I am out to challenge myself. I'll always be the first person to point somebody by, and the first to pull off in the event of a train @ a DE and won't think anything of it. I guess that makes me an aberation. The day I start validating myself through motorsport is the day I stop doing it.
I also want to thank whomever for assuming that I am a beginning driver. FWIW there is no ego involved in any of this motorsport thing for me. I couldn't care less if I am slower or faster then somebody else. I am out to challenge myself. I'll always be the first person to point somebody by, and the first to pull off in the event of a train @ a DE and won't think anything of it. I guess that makes me an aberation. The day I start validating myself through motorsport is the day I stop doing it.
Last edited by Gator_86_951; 11-25-2005 at 03:16 PM.
#59
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Originally Posted by Gator_86_951
...................................FWIW there is no ego involved in any of this motorsport thing for me. I couldn't care less if I am slower or faster then somebody else. I am out to challenge myself. I'll always be the first person to point somebody by, and the first to pull off in the event of a train @ a DE and won't think anything of it. I guess that makes me an aberation. The day I start validating myself through motorsport is the day I stop doing it.
#60
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Originally Posted by RXDOC
I went to my very first autocross ever (as a spectator). Some nice cars and great bunch of guys. But come on, it was like watching paint dry! I was bored out of my mind. At the drivers meeting they told every one they would get three (3) runs! That's 3 X 2.5min! That's about 8 min. of driving in 8 hours. I know that autocross helps you with car control and tracking, but the excitement and energy is just not there!
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
I don't think autocross is in my future, I will just stick to doing DE's.
That's too bad.... At MCO we regularly get 8 runs and I know of one event where everybody got 15 runs! No waiting around to speak of. We have a really great auto timing system and usually can run two cars on the course at once.