VaSteve

Yes, the economics suck.

I did the both for the first time this year. 3 DE's and 1 AX to end the season. In the 4 real and 4 practice runs I learned so much about the car. Mroberts said well when he said you could run at 11/10's or experiment with no fear. In a pratice run, I let up on the gas in an off camber turn and the back wanted to step out (a lot) but I had no fear I was going to hurtle into a tire wall. Great fun and I was home by 3pm, which is nice when you have other things to do in life.

Oour region makes you work during the others runs. So you really see who's good and who's slow.

Lothar

I can see Jack O.'s point about learning some different skills, but I don't think AX is the only place to develop better car control and line analysis. It's hard to analyze the line when you get so little time.

I would try Karting at a real track. I went to VIR's go-kart track this past weekend. I loved being able to drive to the absolute limit without fear of balling up my car. It sharpens your reflexes and makes you look at every turn with a critical eye towards the fastest line. When you go with a group, you know when you are gaining or losing based on your line.

My first two sessions, I drove the car to the limit and beyond. I was dirt-tracking the car around the track which was dead slow but educational. After the initial practice and the first 10 minute race, I knew where I could slide the rear end and where the car needed to be hooked up to lay down the power. Even when the kart was completely sideways and slow, I was in complete control.

Try that in your precious 911!!! THe best part was that in our one hour session, I got about one hour of track time. There was no sitting around and you were forced to drive many different lines while passing others and being passed.

I'll take karts over AX anyday for a great learning experience.

rockitman

Don't think you can compare auto-x with tracktime. It's like the choice of going to the dentist or a nice Carribean holiday...

Larry Herman

Actually I went about three times that much, but I was really hooked. And don't forget, unlike a DE, just about every second was spent sliding around!

VaSteve

Or cracking a rib.....ouch.

bobt993

Darren...... your an idiot!!! Kam, you can second this. LARRY. One question which you might have a good honest answer for..... There is one guy that seems to run the fastest AX times in our group, but has had some track offs including a pretty hard one at Summit. Do you think driving with PSM all the time puts a driver at a disadvantage? I have not had a car with PSM in 5 years, so I don't have any idea how much it affects car control, but your constantly teaching students with it.

Z-man

It is impossible to a car at 11/10ths of it's ability and still stay in control.

I autocrossed three years prior to getting involved with DE's. Nowadays, I do both DE and AX. I personally have never found AX to be boring. I usually bring a fold up chair, and never even have time to sit in it! Those of you who know me, know that I'm a social butterfly - and there are plenty of folks to chit-chat with when I'm not dodging the cones at an AX. Also: early on, I would catch rides with as many veteran instructors that I could - to see how they drove. A couple of years ago, I started instructing in AX - and since then, hardly a minute goes by when I'm not in a car - either running my runs, or instructing.

So, if you're bored by sitting around all day, you can try my three options - be a social butterly, take rides with veteran drivers, or become an instructor.

My $0.42,
-Z.

mroberts

That was my point !

I prefer to think of it this way:
Cruising the backroads = looking at pictures of naked women
Autocross = Mrs Palmer and her five daughter
Track days = three Swedish airline hostesses
Racing = ????? Never tried it ...

Bull

Ah Z....the point is driving time as far as I'm concerned. 6-8 mins a day doesn't cut it!

Z-man

Understood. AX is like asparagus - it is definately an aquired taste! Some dig it, others don't.

-Z-man.

And no, I don't dig asparagus. Or Brussel sprouts for that matter!

Bull

You know me...I'm a vegetarian. Haven't consumed a steer in weeks...well, days....

Larry Herman

Yeah that was pretty funny. For some reason I was taking the course in second, and when Darren said to try it in first, my time dropped 1.4 seconds. Good enough for 2nd overall.

I haven't driven a car with PSM at anything above 5/10ths so I really don't know how much it will affect a car driven hard, but smoothly. I do know that it never really presents itself in cars that my students drive, as long as they are going smoothly on the line. I do think that it can catch a host of problems that would cause the car to spin unless expertly driven, such as push-loose, power oversteer and pinching the turn.

rockitman

Better analysis. Auto-X(other than the lack of drive time) imo would definatley be beneficial to one's driving skills before and or while doing track days. It can never hurt putting the car on edge and see if you can catch it in a relatively safe(for both car&driver) environment like a parking lot. No big deal crushing cones.

agio

Ahhh, a car control clinic would be very beneficial to all drivers on all tracks. That to me, though is not AX. When I was up north, we did car control clinics, very helpful to all. Highly recommended by most of the drivers I've known.

911

I'll add my .02 here:

Although you get a lot more track time from doing DE events, what's just as important, IMO, is the quality of the time you spend behind the wheel. For example, you may get 2 hours of track time during a track day, but how much of that time is in the corners and how much of it is on the straights?

To me, the value of autocrossing is that every second of your run is quality time because all you are doing is tossing the car left to right. So, you may get only 3-8 runs each day, but your entire time behind the wheel is pure quality.

I autocrossed for six years before I started doing track events w/ the POC in 1999. It's a great way to learn car control.

Rich