Hahns-like devices and DE
11-02-2005, 02:35 PM
#16
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I agree that if someone refuses to use the restraint equipment that I provide, I would never do the same to "equal" them. I might even ask them to not ride in my car.
As for an H&N device, I see them as personal equipment, which each person chooses to use, or not. Just as they can choose to ride in my car, or not.
I have never used the accumulated safety equipment of each driver as a gauge of their likely agressiveness!
Just my personal feelings, and I know others may feel differently.
As for an H&N device, I see them as personal equipment, which each person chooses to use, or not. Just as they can choose to ride in my car, or not.
I have never used the accumulated safety equipment of each driver as a gauge of their likely agressiveness!
Just my personal feelings, and I know others may feel differently.
11-02-2005, 02:42 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
If you were assigned a student who had a $1k Stand 21 helmet and an $800 Sparco suit, would you make him leave that gear behind in the paddock because you only had a ratty Bell Snell 95 helmet, jeans and sneakers ?
Is that what I'm hearing here ?
You're kidding, right ?
Is that what I'm hearing here ?
You're kidding, right ?
11-02-2005, 02:47 PM
#18
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Alan,
For what it's worth, I would imagine that most drivers forget they are using an H&N restraint device while they are on the track. I know I do. I try to take every possible step to make myself safer, but I still don't want to go off the track. So, I don't think that the mere fact that a driver is using an H&N device would make a passenger more unsafe by creating a false sense of security in the driver.
If you like, you could get an R3 for yourself, or even an ISAAC like I have. Provided that the student driver has harnesses (I would bet that most, if not all, of drivers who have H&N devices would also have harnesses), it wouldn't be too hard to clip on your own ISAAC to the passenger side harness.
Here is a pic of me using my H&N device. Our own Eli took the pic.
Also, for those of you who use the ISAAC, the angles look pretty good on my setup, don't they?
For what it's worth, I would imagine that most drivers forget they are using an H&N restraint device while they are on the track. I know I do. I try to take every possible step to make myself safer, but I still don't want to go off the track. So, I don't think that the mere fact that a driver is using an H&N device would make a passenger more unsafe by creating a false sense of security in the driver.
If you like, you could get an R3 for yourself, or even an ISAAC like I have. Provided that the student driver has harnesses (I would bet that most, if not all, of drivers who have H&N devices would also have harnesses), it wouldn't be too hard to clip on your own ISAAC to the passenger side harness.
Here is a pic of me using my H&N device. Our own Eli took the pic.
Also, for those of you who use the ISAAC, the angles look pretty good on my setup, don't they?
TD
That's the biggest exhaust I have EVER seen on a 944.
11-02-2005, 02:48 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Rassel
Sorry for off-topic comment:
TD
That's the biggest exhaust I have EVER seen on a 944.
TD
That's the biggest exhaust I have EVER seen on a 944.
Here is a link to where I got my exhaust: http://www.shoplaser.com/ I opted for the "flare" model. Butt dyno says I gained serious horsepower.
As the site explains, "For a variety of cars with electronic fuel injection engine control, the SPINNER EXHAUST TIP has the beneficial effect to eliminate the initial hesitation of the engine under rapid acceleration. Furthermore, the exhaust gases emanating from the tailpipe will be uniformly dispersed into the atmosphere. In some instances the speed of the vehicle will be sufficient to create a negative presence at the outlet of the exhaust tailpipe to assist in the evacuation of the exhaust gases."
You can't argue with science.
Back to the topic at hand.
Last edited by TD in DC; 11-02-2005 at 03:34 PM.
11-02-2005, 03:34 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Alan Herod
Of course not. That sounds irritating and condescending,
I have important things to deal with, like sharpening pencils and clipping paperclips together. See y'all later.
11-02-2005, 03:49 PM
#21
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I don't understand the concern. Was there anything preventing you from wearing a HANS device? If not then it is your "fault" for not wearing one, not the drivers. I can guarantee you the first time I put on a HANS device and drove on the track I did not think that I was invincible, I doubt your "student" had a different mindset either.
If you don't feel 100% comfortable in someone elses car you should get out.
If you don't feel 100% comfortable in someone elses car you should get out.
11-02-2005, 04:01 PM
#22
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perhaps I am wrong on this -- earlier when this subject has come up, others, more informed then I am, have stated that H&N devices are not interchangeable and harnesses must be set up for one set up or another. There was nothing, other then timing (and money) from preventing me from purchasing one of each, so that I could be prepared for any car. Certainly it is my fault for not purchasing and wearing one. I discussed this at length with a retailer/supplier/racer who has selected the Hans as the safest device. He believes that the data clearly indicate the Hahns device as the safest of the alternatives. I asked about the R3 because I thought that this might be a good alternative for instructing and he relayed that test results (because of fitment to the body) do not support that claim.
11-02-2005, 04:11 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by Alan Herod
There was nothing, other then timing (and money) from preventing me from purchasing one of each, so that I could be prepared for any car. Certainly it is my fault for not purchasing and wearing one. I discussed this at length with a retailer/supplier/racer who has selected the Hans as the safest device. He believes that the data clearly indicate the Hahns device as the safest of the alternatives. I asked about the R3 because I thought that this might be a good alternative for instructing and he relayed that test results (because of fitment to the body) do not support that claim.
If a car has the proper equipment (seats and harnesses) you should be able to get adjusted with a HANS without too much trouble. This is not something to do on the grid two minutes before the session starts.
11-02-2005, 04:34 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Alan Herod
perhaps I am wrong on this -- earlier when this subject has come up, others, more informed then I am, have stated that H&N devices are not interchangeable and harnesses must be set up for one set up or another. There was nothing, other then timing (and money) from preventing me from purchasing one of each, so that I could be prepared for any car. Certainly it is my fault for not purchasing and wearing one. I discussed this at length with a retailer/supplier/racer who has selected the Hans as the safest device. He believes that the data clearly indicate the Hahns device as the safest of the alternatives. I asked about the R3 because I thought that this might be a good alternative for instructing and he relayed that test results (because of fitment to the body) do not support that claim.
I wouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the very good if I were you. If you are concerned about using an H&N device in student's cars, you instruct a lot, and you don't want to buy multiple devices (who does), then wouldn't an R3 be better than a Hans? Sure, maybe a Hans device properly set up for your car "might" (and I am not sure about this) be better in YOUR car than an R3, which is not car specific, but wouldn't you be better off overall wearing an R3 in both your car and your students' cars rather than a HANS device in your car and nothing in your students' cars? If I were an instructor, I would consider an R3 for that reason alone. The better HANS device will not do you any good if you aren't wearing it and your student hits a wall with you in the passenger seat.
Also, the ISAAC "seems" to be a little less sensitive to belt placement issues in light of the way it is designed. It wouldn't take a second to place it on your student's harnesses and see whether it falls within parameters.
Just a thought.
TD
11-02-2005, 04:52 PM
#25
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As an instructor, I am considering the R-3. However, it seems as if even the R-3 is somewhat dependent on the harnesses going over the brace for the optimal benefit. So how beneficial is it with a 3 point seat belt?
11-02-2005, 04:52 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Alan Herod
I asked about the R3 because I thought that this might be a good alternative for instructing and he relayed that test results (because of fitment to the body) do not support that claim.
I know that many drivers in my region have acquired head restraint systems and for the most part, they are some of the safest drivers out there and it has not changed their driving style one bit.
I think the final decision falls to the instructor. I would not judge the driver based on whether he has a H&N restraint system or feel more or less safe with a driver who has one. Whenever I am in the right hand seat, I make sure I feel comfortable or I change what the driver is doing.
11-02-2005, 04:57 PM
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Alan, first things first - H&N are restraint systems, I know this because they are all called head and neck restraints 
I guess I'll chime in on the side of who cares - if I don't want to wear a H&N, or don't own one, I don't think it makes it less safe for me to be in the right seat because my student is wearing one. I can see the argument about equal restraints, but I think it's getting into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. I know that we would lose an awful lot of DE participants if we mandated H&N, and I don't think anyone becomes a risk taker just because they have extra safety equipment.
So that would make it a personal decision, and I would never presume to tell someone what to do, nor would I think any less of them if they declined to ride because they felt unsafe in a particular situation. It's your safety, and I can talk all I want but I'm not the one in the car.
On the R3, I own one, and have tested it up close and personal (me, alone in the race car) and it worked perfectly.
And, on the anecdotal side, I had an instructor friend take another non-PCA non-HANS buddy out on Mosport to show him the line. As they were belting up (in a tube frame Trans-Am car), the instructor points to his HANS and says "you know, if I need this, you're f**cked". Four turns later, stuck throttle, buried up to the windshield in the tire wall, but fortunately no injuries.
Payback was the second buddy asking the flatbed driver to show him the rest of the line on the way in.
Bruce
I guess I'll chime in on the side of who cares - if I don't want to wear a H&N, or don't own one, I don't think it makes it less safe for me to be in the right seat because my student is wearing one. I can see the argument about equal restraints, but I think it's getting into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin territory. I know that we would lose an awful lot of DE participants if we mandated H&N, and I don't think anyone becomes a risk taker just because they have extra safety equipment.
So that would make it a personal decision, and I would never presume to tell someone what to do, nor would I think any less of them if they declined to ride because they felt unsafe in a particular situation. It's your safety, and I can talk all I want but I'm not the one in the car.
On the R3, I own one, and have tested it up close and personal (me, alone in the race car) and it worked perfectly.
And, on the anecdotal side, I had an instructor friend take another non-PCA non-HANS buddy out on Mosport to show him the line. As they were belting up (in a tube frame Trans-Am car), the instructor points to his HANS and says "you know, if I need this, you're f**cked". Four turns later, stuck throttle, buried up to the windshield in the tire wall, but fortunately no injuries.
Payback was the second buddy asking the flatbed driver to show him the rest of the line on the way in.
Bruce
11-02-2005, 05:07 PM
#28
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No offense intended Alan, but I think the original question sounds ridiculous. The driver should take off his Hans device because his passenger is too cheap to buy one?? Obviously not. Nor do I believe he should have to supply one to his cheapskate passenger. You know these come in different sizes, right? So I'd have to buy multiple sized hans devices for potential passengers?? Nor should a driver have to buy nomex suits for his passengers.
However, if the driver gets himself race seats and harnesses and leaves you with a stock seat and belt, well that's way uncool. If that's what you're asking, then I agree, you should be uncomfortable. I'd seriously consider refusing to ride with him. Our Chicago region PCA has a rule (that I think EVERY organization should have) that requires equal setups for driver & passenger.
However, if the driver gets himself race seats and harnesses and leaves you with a stock seat and belt, well that's way uncool. If that's what you're asking, then I agree, you should be uncomfortable. I'd seriously consider refusing to ride with him. Our Chicago region PCA has a rule (that I think EVERY organization should have) that requires equal setups for driver & passenger.
11-02-2005, 05:11 PM
#29
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Alan, your question is entirely predicated on the assumption that due to the driver having added personal safety equipment he/she will drive less safely than without thus exposing you to greater risk. I think this is an erroneous assumption and in turn negates the question and issue.
I always looked at added safety equipment by the student as a sign of good mind set on the part of the student. Perhaps you are looking at the student the wrong way for wearing safety equipment that you don’t have.
Further.
IMO H&N systems are elective personal equipment that has to be fitted and adjusted to each person and in the case of most systems to the car as well before they are safe and effective to use. This fitting is very important according to what I have read including the various device manufactures information. This includes the seat size and harness location.
What if the student were using Nomex driving shoes? Does he need to bring the instructor a pair too?
The “R3 is not a good as HANS” argument. Ok, let’s say for discussion purposes that an R3 is less safe by some margin over a properly set up HANS system. This in and of itself is not a reason to not get and use an R3 as an instructor as it is likely more safe than nothing or an ill fitted HANS. Is the R3 better than a HANS in a car that the shoulder straps are not just right for the HANS? I would think that it would be and measurably so. Remember the instruction book that come with the HANS noting all that needs to be just right for the HANS to work.
I always looked at added safety equipment by the student as a sign of good mind set on the part of the student. Perhaps you are looking at the student the wrong way for wearing safety equipment that you don’t have.
Further.
IMO H&N systems are elective personal equipment that has to be fitted and adjusted to each person and in the case of most systems to the car as well before they are safe and effective to use. This fitting is very important according to what I have read including the various device manufactures information. This includes the seat size and harness location.
What if the student were using Nomex driving shoes? Does he need to bring the instructor a pair too?
The “R3 is not a good as HANS” argument. Ok, let’s say for discussion purposes that an R3 is less safe by some margin over a properly set up HANS system. This in and of itself is not a reason to not get and use an R3 as an instructor as it is likely more safe than nothing or an ill fitted HANS. Is the R3 better than a HANS in a car that the shoulder straps are not just right for the HANS? I would think that it would be and measurably so. Remember the instruction book that come with the HANS noting all that needs to be just right for the HANS to work.
11-02-2005, 05:33 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Alan Herod
............................................I discussed this at length with a retailer/supplier/racer who has selected the Hans as the safest device. He believes that the data clearly indicate the Hahns device as the safest of the alternatives. I asked about the R3 because I thought that this might be a good alternative for instructing and he relayed that test results (because of fitment to the body) do not support that claim.