YADEA
10-29-2005, 08:28 PM
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YADEA
Yet Another DE Accident
Okay, let's all say it together, shall we? "It's not DisneyLand out there, folks"
This time it was a Mini at Texas World Speedway - today. Rolled at least twice in T7, with an instructor in the car. Car totaled, driver is in the hospital and won't be coming out tonight. The instructor is bruised, but walking & talking.
The driver's door flew open during the rollover, was folded over in half, and crushed against the front fender, leaving the driver's side door opening a big gaping hole. Scary sight, especially for those of you who know how rough the terrain is in that part of the track.
[sarcasm]
All I can say is, Thank God the driver wasn't racing - you know, in a car with a full roll cage, a fire system, full Nomex, six-point harness, etc, or he could have gotten hurt!
[/sarcasm]
10-29-2005, 08:45 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
I find it wierd that we have so many wrecks in DE's. The last one I was at, (Nashville Superspeedway) a BMW M3, I think, with an instructor, went through turn one too fast, and wiped the car out on the inside wall. I can assure you that if my student had tried to take turn one at that speed, you would have heard me yell, "slow down", all the way to Houston.
DE's are not racing, go fast slowly.
Bill Seifert
DE's are not racing, go fast slowly.
Bill Seifert
10-29-2005, 09:20 PM
#3
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Hmmm, well that sucks, but now that I think about it, I have seen a wreck at probably 80% of the events I have been to over the last two years and probably 20% of them totals...and I probably do around 30-35 days (not events) a year. So although I have only been doing this for two years, I don't see accidents as anything new. The few deaths we have this year is a completely different story though. Obviously it would be better if we had fewer incidents, but they are going to happen.
Were there fewer wrecks ten years ago? I don't know, but I would have to guess yes. Were there fewer drivers at these events? I am confident the answer is also yes. So has the percentage (not amount) of participating drivers who wreck gone up over the years? We hear about more offs now because there are so many drivers at more events. Also, if the internet didn't exist we probably wouldn't hear about many of these, meaning more and more of them are being reported on message boards and read by thousands instanly. I know the internet existed well over ten years ago, but how long have driver message boards been around?
Just some thoughts...
Were there fewer wrecks ten years ago? I don't know, but I would have to guess yes. Were there fewer drivers at these events? I am confident the answer is also yes. So has the percentage (not amount) of participating drivers who wreck gone up over the years? We hear about more offs now because there are so many drivers at more events. Also, if the internet didn't exist we probably wouldn't hear about many of these, meaning more and more of them are being reported on message boards and read by thousands instanly. I know the internet existed well over ten years ago, but how long have driver message boards been around?
Just some thoughts...
10-29-2005, 09:41 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Sorry to hear about the Mini 
. I won't be going out on the track again without a Hans (already have the cage, seat, brace, harnesses, kill switch, etc.). I am also going to get a fuel cell.
All valid points. The other thing to keep in mind is that 10 years ago, a stock 964 was a very fast DE car. Today, nearly every car is faster. Higher speeds equal more accidents.
. I won't be going out on the track again without a Hans (already have the cage, seat, brace, harnesses, kill switch, etc.). I am also going to get a fuel cell.
Originally Posted by forklift
Were there fewer wrecks ten years ago? I don't know, but I would have to guess yes. Were there fewer drivers at these events? I am confident the answer is also yes. So has the percentage (not amount) of participating drivers who wreck gone up over the years? We hear about more offs now because there are so many drivers at more events. Also, if the internet didn't exist we probably wouldn't hear about many of these, meaning more and more of them are being reported on message boards and read by thousands instanly. I know the internet existed well over ten years ago, but how long have driver message boards been around?
10-29-2005, 10:19 PM
#5
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Robert,
Who was the instructor, I just hope she/he is okay?
I've always wished that the track would spend some $ to improve the runoff conditions in that turn.
Who was the instructor, I just hope she/he is okay?
I've always wished that the track would spend some $ to improve the runoff conditions in that turn.
10-29-2005, 10:25 PM
#6
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sounds like a bad accident, but i don't get the point of the post. are we assuming DE is safer? i personally feel safer with a rollbar and would like to have harnesses as well, but sure....it can be hazardous. i think everybody should realize that.
10-29-2005, 10:53 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Forklift
I did my first DE at Road Atlanta in 1990. Over the next 5 years I went there about 8 or 9 times. I don't think I can remember any event that somebody didn't wreck their car. I doubt there more accidents now verses then, but I have no hard stats to prove it. One thing though, I don't remember as many accidents with instructors on board back then, but again can't prove it.
I mostly race now (Full cage, harness, etc, etc.) I do do DE's about 2 or 3 times a year, but mostly as test days for the race car. I do know, I will not let a student go faster than I feel comfortable. I would stop him and get out, if I thought he was over his head, and couldn't talk him into going slower. I guess someone could do something really stupid, before I could say anything. I would like to talk to the instructors that are with students that wreck, and ask if it happened so fast the instructor couldn't stop him. Who knows, maybe I've just been lucky.
Let me ask this, am I the only instructor that feels nervous as heck, when he turns a student loose for solo the first time.
Bill
I did my first DE at Road Atlanta in 1990. Over the next 5 years I went there about 8 or 9 times. I don't think I can remember any event that somebody didn't wreck their car. I doubt there more accidents now verses then, but I have no hard stats to prove it. One thing though, I don't remember as many accidents with instructors on board back then, but again can't prove it.
I mostly race now (Full cage, harness, etc, etc.) I do do DE's about 2 or 3 times a year, but mostly as test days for the race car. I do know, I will not let a student go faster than I feel comfortable. I would stop him and get out, if I thought he was over his head, and couldn't talk him into going slower. I guess someone could do something really stupid, before I could say anything. I would like to talk to the instructors that are with students that wreck, and ask if it happened so fast the instructor couldn't stop him. Who knows, maybe I've just been lucky.
Let me ask this, am I the only instructor that feels nervous as heck, when he turns a student loose for solo the first time.
Bill
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10-29-2005, 10:55 PM
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I've just had a phone call from a friend of mine that another friend of ours witnessed a serious incident at NHIS yesterday in a BMWCCA event as well. The event is a club race combined with a DE and apparently it happened during a restart during on of the races. As I have no independent confirmation and I can't find anything in the news, I'm hoping that my friend was mistaken, has anyone else heard anything?
10-29-2005, 10:58 PM
#9
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A Rookie's Perspective...
Originally Posted by forklift
Hmmm, well that sucks, but now that I think about it, I have seen a wreck at probably 80% of the events I have been to over the last two years and probably 20% of them totals...and I probably do around 30-35 days (not events) a year. So although I have only been doing this for two years, I don't see accidents as anything new. The few deaths we have this year is a completely different story though. Obviously it would be better if we had fewer incidents, but they are going to happen.
Were there fewer wrecks ten years ago? I don't know, but I would have to guess yes. Were there fewer drivers at these events? I am confident the answer is also yes. So has the percentage (not amount) of participating drivers who wreck gone up over the years? We hear about more offs now because there are so many drivers at more events. Also, if the internet didn't exist we probably wouldn't hear about many of these, meaning more and more of them are being reported on message boards and read by thousands instanly. I know the internet existed well over ten years ago, but how long have driver message boards been around?
Just some thoughts...
Were there fewer wrecks ten years ago? I don't know, but I would have to guess yes. Were there fewer drivers at these events? I am confident the answer is also yes. So has the percentage (not amount) of participating drivers who wreck gone up over the years? We hear about more offs now because there are so many drivers at more events. Also, if the internet didn't exist we probably wouldn't hear about many of these, meaning more and more of them are being reported on message boards and read by thousands instanly. I know the internet existed well over ten years ago, but how long have driver message boards been around?
Just some thoughts...
As a rookie I've been smitten by the DE bug, yet I'm scared of running in the Green/Yellow groups. Why? Because I have no confidence or clue as to what the car in front on me is likely to do at any point on the track. I've had a couple of narrow misses when the guy/gal right in front of my nose spun and went off.
I think because anyone who can pay the fee can participate, and the growing popularity of racing, its perhaps getting to a point where the clubs may be letting down their guard. What worked in the past may not be working in the present...where belief in the notion that "an instructor is riding with a student" may provide a false sense of comfort. Precious little the instructor can do in today's fast cars if the student is unable to execute instructions.
I have gone on record to suggest that rookies must undergo classroom and car control clinics ,and pass a mandatory skills test, before they're ever allowed on the track. Some basic proficiency should be required, No! But I guess that hasn't rung a bell yet...
As stated earlier I'd love to participate in a lot more DE's than I currently do because I want to learn and become smoother, faster and a better driver. But darn it's Scary...
Help! 'am I just fearful of something that only exists as a figment of my imagination? Or is this the reality?
Last edited by BobbyC; 10-30-2005 at 12:35 AM.
10-29-2005, 11:50 PM
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Ummm...
The point was that DE is not necessarily any safer than racing. Certainly, DE can be dangerous. Since no one expects wrecks in DEs, they probably seem worse. In racing, they are expected as part of the deal. DE IS safer, but it is not "safe."
There ARE INDEED WAAAAAY more wrecks than there used to be. Factors; Pop Culture On the Edge Lifestyle Macho Wannabee Mentality. Faster cars. More pariticpants overall. Fewer people autocrossing, or coming to DE from autocross. Unrealistic expectations. Fewer people with motoroil in their veins, i.e. too many clueless neophytes.
Watch the baboons on MTV or Fast & Furious or Choppers This or X-Games that and life seems cheap. Everything is Extreme or Radical or Gnarly. Problem is that life is not a computer-generated special effect, and those dolts don't think about consequences... like being 40. If you have an extra brain cell left after you pull on your pants, you do think about such things.
If you are scared of other drivers, and have had "close calls" in the Green group, the fault is yours. You are right, you DON'T know what that person will do, so why are you close to them? If you get surprised when someone runs out of talent, it is YOUR fault, not theres. You had best brush up on your assessment skills and wait until you have a fair amount of experience around that person. Until then, you learn to always have an exit strategy, but first you give them room. That is just as much a part of performance driving as hitting your apex, and it is no different in Red than Green.
I do not let my students go fast until they can go "slow" consistently. Once they show me they can, I know that they are thnking about what they are doing. Once they get the line down, and drive consistently, speed happens by itself. If they start to exceeed their ability to remain consistent and drive fairly subconsciously, I bring them back and we start the ascent again. No instructor can forsee the wild hair, but you CAN see patterns that may lead to them.
The secret to not having a first-time solo-er wreck is to never sign anyone off!
The point was that DE is not necessarily any safer than racing. Certainly, DE can be dangerous. Since no one expects wrecks in DEs, they probably seem worse. In racing, they are expected as part of the deal. DE IS safer, but it is not "safe."
There ARE INDEED WAAAAAY more wrecks than there used to be. Factors; Pop Culture On the Edge Lifestyle Macho Wannabee Mentality. Faster cars. More pariticpants overall. Fewer people autocrossing, or coming to DE from autocross. Unrealistic expectations. Fewer people with motoroil in their veins, i.e. too many clueless neophytes.
Watch the baboons on MTV or Fast & Furious or Choppers This or X-Games that and life seems cheap. Everything is Extreme or Radical or Gnarly. Problem is that life is not a computer-generated special effect, and those dolts don't think about consequences... like being 40. If you have an extra brain cell left after you pull on your pants, you do think about such things.
If you are scared of other drivers, and have had "close calls" in the Green group, the fault is yours. You are right, you DON'T know what that person will do, so why are you close to them? If you get surprised when someone runs out of talent, it is YOUR fault, not theres. You had best brush up on your assessment skills and wait until you have a fair amount of experience around that person. Until then, you learn to always have an exit strategy, but first you give them room. That is just as much a part of performance driving as hitting your apex, and it is no different in Red than Green.
I do not let my students go fast until they can go "slow" consistently. Once they show me they can, I know that they are thnking about what they are doing. Once they get the line down, and drive consistently, speed happens by itself. If they start to exceeed their ability to remain consistent and drive fairly subconsciously, I bring them back and we start the ascent again. No instructor can forsee the wild hair, but you CAN see patterns that may lead to them.
The secret to not having a first-time solo-er wreck is to never sign anyone off!
10-30-2005, 12:05 AM
#12
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Good thread. I hadn’t thought about the extra hp when I wrote my post, but that is certainly true. There are many green drivers in very, very fast cars. Luckily, most of the drivers that I have sat next to have had a good head on their shoulders. If they seemed to be driving over their head I have/will instantly let them know. One thing that many (but not all) beginners do is start turning in early when they pick up some speed. With me, they will need to have the line down well before they can go significantly faster, but if I see that they are hitting all or most of the marks I will let them pick it up a notch. If they start turning in early I let them know how critical it is that they not do that and if they continue to turn early, we will go back down to 4/10ths. I also ask them if they know to drive straight off and to come back on very gradually if we do go off. I ask early in the first session and might remind them again when we start picking up speed. “Not that we will go off…right?, but if we do…” Most of my close calls and the one off (fairly minor) riding shotgun have been due to early turn ins.
Bill, in this one off, my student turned in really early and as soon as he did I said/semi-yelled, “you are way early, be careful!”….a half a second later he drove straight off, but then we hit a pot hole as he was turning in the grass which sent us spinning. It was pretty weird.
Bobby C: I do see some crazy stuff in Green sometimes, like braking in the middle of a corner, but I have only seen car to car contact at a DE once and that was just a few weekends ago where someone’s brakes went out. Of course car to car is possible, but leaving the track without any help is the most likely way something bad will happen and that will probably be due to turning in too early. One key difference that I did not note above is that one of the main differences between beginners and advanced drivers is that although advanced drivers turn in early frequently they recognize it instantaneously. Their subconscious takes over and they do whatever needs to happen at that moment, which is slow down, hopefully w/o spinning or going off.
“I think because anyone who can pay the fee can participate, and the growing popularity of racing, its perhaps getting to a point where the clubs may be letting down their guard.” I don’t see this myself as the organizers harp on safety at nearly all of the instructor meetings and all of the instructors that I know including myself are big on self-preservation. I do agree that if you are in a fast car and the student makes a bad move, you can yell, but mostly you are in for a ride. Which brings up the subject of the instructor grabbing the wheel, something I will never do for liability reasons. I do know one instructor who will not hesitate to grab the wheel though.
I instruct for four organizations and only PCA requires either prior track experience of completion of a high performance driving clinic and I agree this is a good thing. One of them however has a skid pad available through out the day.
As far as being scary, it is defiantly more dangerous than golf, but maybe that danger and exhilaration makes it so fun. Just start out slow and don’t worry about the other guy. This stuff is 95% mental and is in your control. Confidence without being cocky is also important. If you go out there thinking you will wreck, there is a better chance you will. The only thing I ever “worry” about are oil and anti-freeze spills. Not much you can do about those if you don’t see them, hopefully you (we!) will.
Be safe, learn, and have fun (in that order).
Bill, in this one off, my student turned in really early and as soon as he did I said/semi-yelled, “you are way early, be careful!”….a half a second later he drove straight off, but then we hit a pot hole as he was turning in the grass which sent us spinning. It was pretty weird.
Bobby C: I do see some crazy stuff in Green sometimes, like braking in the middle of a corner, but I have only seen car to car contact at a DE once and that was just a few weekends ago where someone’s brakes went out. Of course car to car is possible, but leaving the track without any help is the most likely way something bad will happen and that will probably be due to turning in too early. One key difference that I did not note above is that one of the main differences between beginners and advanced drivers is that although advanced drivers turn in early frequently they recognize it instantaneously. Their subconscious takes over and they do whatever needs to happen at that moment, which is slow down, hopefully w/o spinning or going off.
“I think because anyone who can pay the fee can participate, and the growing popularity of racing, its perhaps getting to a point where the clubs may be letting down their guard.” I don’t see this myself as the organizers harp on safety at nearly all of the instructor meetings and all of the instructors that I know including myself are big on self-preservation. I do agree that if you are in a fast car and the student makes a bad move, you can yell, but mostly you are in for a ride. Which brings up the subject of the instructor grabbing the wheel, something I will never do for liability reasons. I do know one instructor who will not hesitate to grab the wheel though.
I instruct for four organizations and only PCA requires either prior track experience of completion of a high performance driving clinic and I agree this is a good thing. One of them however has a skid pad available through out the day.
As far as being scary, it is defiantly more dangerous than golf, but maybe that danger and exhilaration makes it so fun. Just start out slow and don’t worry about the other guy. This stuff is 95% mental and is in your control. Confidence without being cocky is also important. If you go out there thinking you will wreck, there is a better chance you will. The only thing I ever “worry” about are oil and anti-freeze spills. Not much you can do about those if you don’t see them, hopefully you (we!) will.
Be safe, learn, and have fun (in that order).
Last edited by forklift; 10-30-2005 at 12:20 AM.
10-30-2005, 12:08 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
I do not let my students go fast until they can go "slow" consistently. Once they show me they can, I know that they are thnking about what they are doing. Once they get the line down, and drive consistently, speed happens by itself. If they start to exceeed their ability to remain consistent and drive fairly subconsciously, I bring them back and we start the ascent again. No instructor can forsee the wild hair, but you CAN see patterns that may lead to them.
10-30-2005, 12:11 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Ummm...
The point was that DE is not necessarily any safer than racing. Certainly, DE can be dangerous. Since no one expects wrecks in DEs, they probably seem worse. In racing, they are expected as part of the deal. DE IS safer, but it is not "safe."
There ARE INDEED WAAAAAY more wrecks than there used to be. Factors; Pop Culture On the Edge Lifestyle Macho Wannabee Mentality. Faster cars. More pariticpants overall. Fewer people autocrossing, or coming to DE from autocross. Unrealistic expectations. Fewer people with motoroil in their veins, i.e. too many clueless neophytes.
Watch the baboons on MTV or Fast & Furious or Choppers This or X-Games that and life seems cheap. Everything is Extreme or Radical or Gnarly. Problem is that life is not a computer-generated special effect, and those dolts don't think about consequences... like being 40. If you have an extra brain cell left after you pull on your pants, you do think about such things.
If you are scared of other drivers, and have had "close calls" in the Green group, the fault is yours. You are right, you DON'T know what that person will do, so why are you close to them? If you get surprised when someone runs out of talent, it is YOUR fault, not theres. You had best brush up on your assessment skills and wait until you have a fair amount of experience around that person. Until then, you learn to always have an exit strategy, but first you give them room. That is just as much a part of performance driving as hitting your apex, and it is no different in Red than Green.
I do not let my students go fast until they can go "slow" consistently. Once they show me they can, I know that they are thnking about what they are doing. Once they get the line down, and drive consistently, speed happens by itself. If they start to exceeed their ability to remain consistent and drive fairly subconsciously, I bring them back and we start the ascent again. No instructor can forsee the wild hair, but you CAN see patterns that may lead to them.
The secret to not having a first-time solo-er wreck is to never sign anyone off!
The point was that DE is not necessarily any safer than racing. Certainly, DE can be dangerous. Since no one expects wrecks in DEs, they probably seem worse. In racing, they are expected as part of the deal. DE IS safer, but it is not "safe."
There ARE INDEED WAAAAAY more wrecks than there used to be. Factors; Pop Culture On the Edge Lifestyle Macho Wannabee Mentality. Faster cars. More pariticpants overall. Fewer people autocrossing, or coming to DE from autocross. Unrealistic expectations. Fewer people with motoroil in their veins, i.e. too many clueless neophytes.
Watch the baboons on MTV or Fast & Furious or Choppers This or X-Games that and life seems cheap. Everything is Extreme or Radical or Gnarly. Problem is that life is not a computer-generated special effect, and those dolts don't think about consequences... like being 40. If you have an extra brain cell left after you pull on your pants, you do think about such things.
If you are scared of other drivers, and have had "close calls" in the Green group, the fault is yours. You are right, you DON'T know what that person will do, so why are you close to them? If you get surprised when someone runs out of talent, it is YOUR fault, not theres. You had best brush up on your assessment skills and wait until you have a fair amount of experience around that person. Until then, you learn to always have an exit strategy, but first you give them room. That is just as much a part of performance driving as hitting your apex, and it is no different in Red than Green.
I do not let my students go fast until they can go "slow" consistently. Once they show me they can, I know that they are thnking about what they are doing. Once they get the line down, and drive consistently, speed happens by itself. If they start to exceeed their ability to remain consistent and drive fairly subconsciously, I bring them back and we start the ascent again. No instructor can forsee the wild hair, but you CAN see patterns that may lead to them.
The secret to not having a first-time solo-er wreck is to never sign anyone off!
Most of the safety babble I've heard on these forums is about having the right protective gear wrapped around the driver...which is, at best, a remedial philosophy not a preventive one!
10-30-2005, 12:28 AM
#15
From the BMWCCA Web Site:
It is with the deepest sadness that we announce the passing of BMW CCA member and club racer David MacPherson, following an incident on Friday, October 28, 2005 during a BMW CCA club race at New Hampshire International Speedway. Our heartfelt condolences go out to David's family. David resided in Danville, Virginia and was a member of the Tarheel Chapter. Additional information will be released as it becomes available.
A big bummer for sure. Dont know the details, but even the best and safest race cars and bodies in them can bend in ways that one just can not survive.
Condolences to the family. Its a dangerous sport any way you cut it. Be careful out there.
It is with the deepest sadness that we announce the passing of BMW CCA member and club racer David MacPherson, following an incident on Friday, October 28, 2005 during a BMW CCA club race at New Hampshire International Speedway. Our heartfelt condolences go out to David's family. David resided in Danville, Virginia and was a member of the Tarheel Chapter. Additional information will be released as it becomes available.
A big bummer for sure. Dont know the details, but even the best and safest race cars and bodies in them can bend in ways that one just can not survive.
Condolences to the family. Its a dangerous sport any way you cut it. Be careful out there.