YADEA
11-01-2005, 01:42 PM
#61
First, incidents are not limited to Green Group drivers... they occur at all levels.
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
11-01-2005, 02:02 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by JCP911S
First, incidents are not limited to Green Group drivers... they occur at all levels.
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
Not that is makes this tragedy any better, I am 99.9% sure this was a club racing accident not a DE accident. So that doesn’t make any of these posts irrelevant, as safety at DEs is can never be stressed enough, I think it is important to know the facts here.
Please see: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=434800
11-01-2005, 02:08 PM
#63
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Good stuff, Fellers!
I see the driver aid debate this way. As I mentioned previously, these new cars run out of talent way AFTER the drivers do. That makes it really tough for the drivers to get the car control experience they need. They just can't drive that fast in most cases, and the car is doing it for them to boot. When these newer,faster, safer cars DO run out of "talent," they do so at much higher speeds - well past the point where the novice can do anything to help - and with much less notice (as Phillipe [phils87951] sagely suggests). Like R-tires, they just don't give you the novice feedback like an old slow "unaided" car does. But, it is indeed the wave of the future. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get Porsche to put real off-switches on this stuff?
Instructors? We need to be more vigilant than ever. We need to make absolutely sure that the student loses his/her thoughts of going fast RIGHT OFF. We need to recalibrate them to the idea of driving WELL, not fast. We need to keep them at speeds at which they can establish a solid subconscious foundation for as long as it takes to be dead consistent. When the time comes, we must discuss avoidance maneuvers and exit strategies, and then NEVER let them slip over the edge in a place on the track that will not stand such. At such a point, we take them out and SHOW them some of what we are talking about.
Todd, I'm ALL OVER VIR next week!
I see the driver aid debate this way. As I mentioned previously, these new cars run out of talent way AFTER the drivers do. That makes it really tough for the drivers to get the car control experience they need. They just can't drive that fast in most cases, and the car is doing it for them to boot. When these newer,faster, safer cars DO run out of "talent," they do so at much higher speeds - well past the point where the novice can do anything to help - and with much less notice (as Phillipe [phils87951] sagely suggests). Like R-tires, they just don't give you the novice feedback like an old slow "unaided" car does. But, it is indeed the wave of the future. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get Porsche to put real off-switches on this stuff?
Instructors? We need to be more vigilant than ever. We need to make absolutely sure that the student loses his/her thoughts of going fast RIGHT OFF. We need to recalibrate them to the idea of driving WELL, not fast. We need to keep them at speeds at which they can establish a solid subconscious foundation for as long as it takes to be dead consistent. When the time comes, we must discuss avoidance maneuvers and exit strategies, and then NEVER let them slip over the edge in a place on the track that will not stand such. At such a point, we take them out and SHOW them some of what we are talking about.
Todd, I'm ALL OVER VIR next week!
11-01-2005, 02:14 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by JCP911S
First, incidents are not limited to Green Group drivers... they occur at all levels.
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
Second, there is no single cause, or generalized "problem"... each incident is different
Third, speed always comes more quickly than experience... drivers at all levels have to push themselves to learn... and the result is mistakes... occasionally they lead to accidents... its inevitable.
Fourth, no matter what rules you set, they will never prevent mistakes... this is a risky sport... the more serious the students take it the better.... but it can happen to anybody
This subject of "How can we make it safer?" is too dear to my mind & heart...and I'll be happy to volunteer time and whatever resources I can muster if it helps raise the safety bar at DE's. Every little bit may just go a long way to prevent those incidents that can be avoided...
Show me what and how it needs to be done, better still join me in this endeavor, and let's see if we can collectively make current practices better!
11-01-2005, 02:28 PM
#65
Originally Posted by BobbyC
This subject of "How can we make it safer?" is too dear to my mind & heart...!
I think that's the whole point here.... keep the safety issue front and center of the discussion at all times.... safe is fun... nobody wants to go home with a wrecked car or a broken bone.
11-01-2005, 02:29 PM
#66
Race Director
Originally Posted by BobbyC
Z-Man...you're missing the point. The debate's about safety at DE's. How we make the events safer? Most here already agree that drivers need honed skills...the question is how does one effectively raise the bar?
It's not a pissing contest about the merits/demerits of 996TT's and 944's!
It's not a pissing contest about the merits/demerits of 996TT's and 944's!
What I am saying with regards to the modern Porsches is this: while it is easier to drive such a car on the track, and put down faster laps, it is more difficult to really learn how to drive such a car correctly. Has nothing to do with the driver - it's about the car.
I once was given the opportunity to drive a friend's modified 996TT at Pocono - after I developed engine trouble with my car. Based on my pace compared to me driving my 944 vs. the rest of the pack and driving the 996TT vs. the rest of the pack, I was putting down faster laps in the 996TT. But I can tell you that the faster time came 99% from the straights, even though I had backed off my driving significantly. It was very easy for me to be sloppy and ineffective in the corners with that car - with all that power, I was able to compensate for the slow turns by hitting the loud pedal once the car was pointed straight. At the time, I was already running in the black run group.
Even drivers with a bit of experience under their belt can easily let the car drive for them, and forget the proper driving techniques that are necessary to really drive a car well.
Mr. Redlineman stated it best: the modern cars and their electric gizmos enable a driver to drive a car faster before it gets out of sorts. So when the car can't compensate for rookie mistakes, the "off" will occur at a much greater rate of speed. But that's always been the case as new cars join the mix...
Heck, if we all took this Driver's Education seriously, we'd all be taking stock 356's out there!
-Z-man.
Last edited by Z-man; 11-02-2005 at 10:16 AM.
11-01-2005, 04:08 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
Very interesting thread. In PCA Zone 8 we require De/TT drivers to have completed 4 autocrosses or 2 autoxs and our 2-day drivers school prior to their first DE/TT.
11-01-2005, 04:09 PM
#68
Mr. Excitement
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Originally Posted by Z-man
Heck, if we all took this Driver's Education seriously, we'd all be taking stock 356's out there!
-Z-man.
-Z-man.
11-01-2005, 07:26 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Z-man
It was very easy for me to be sloppy and ineffective in the corners with that car
11-01-2005, 08:45 PM
#70
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Hey now...
That's the spirit, Bobby. I have gotten involved in safety because I build and maintain people's track cars. I have furthered this by studying a lot and then applying it by helping people to make good equipment decisions based on solid information. I also have authored my series of articles on driving to help novices and instructors when they think they have hit "a wall." This is proof that there are many ways to help.
Honestly, I think you will look back in a year or two and feel differently about how things are working. There is more infrastructure and quality in our DE programs now than ever before. I think to a large extent, we can thank our northern friend Chris Kirby from Rennsport Region for this. He set the standard by cleaning up the 48 Hours and turning it into a premier event. There are many others who have taken that lead back to their own regions and done the same. The latest might be Pete Tremper, who spear-headed the National DE Instructor Training Program. You may be the next wave of leaders if you keep this up!
I suggest that you bide your time and pay your dues for a while. When you reach a sufficient level of undestanding, you will have more amunition to pursue your goals of making it all work better. People in your region will also be more aware of you as a driver and person, which will give you some more clout. No problem making everyone aware that you want to help now. Perhaps with tech, or with helping the chief instructor, or... anything. The less these people get bogged down in minutia, the more time they will have to devote to the larger picture.
You are a prized commodity; someone willing and eager to help. That is worth a lot. If Z vouches for you, that's good enough for me!!
That's the spirit, Bobby. I have gotten involved in safety because I build and maintain people's track cars. I have furthered this by studying a lot and then applying it by helping people to make good equipment decisions based on solid information. I also have authored my series of articles on driving to help novices and instructors when they think they have hit "a wall." This is proof that there are many ways to help.
Honestly, I think you will look back in a year or two and feel differently about how things are working. There is more infrastructure and quality in our DE programs now than ever before. I think to a large extent, we can thank our northern friend Chris Kirby from Rennsport Region for this. He set the standard by cleaning up the 48 Hours and turning it into a premier event. There are many others who have taken that lead back to their own regions and done the same. The latest might be Pete Tremper, who spear-headed the National DE Instructor Training Program. You may be the next wave of leaders if you keep this up!
I suggest that you bide your time and pay your dues for a while. When you reach a sufficient level of undestanding, you will have more amunition to pursue your goals of making it all work better. People in your region will also be more aware of you as a driver and person, which will give you some more clout. No problem making everyone aware that you want to help now. Perhaps with tech, or with helping the chief instructor, or... anything. The less these people get bogged down in minutia, the more time they will have to devote to the larger picture.
You are a prized commodity; someone willing and eager to help. That is worth a lot. If Z vouches for you, that's good enough for me!!
11-01-2005, 09:07 PM
#71
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Bobby - Come out to the track ops meeting and volunteer but you are probably going to have to hang up those golf clubs for a while in order to get out to the track. You didn't get to many events this year . . . and for someone who is safety conscious, I would suggest that you will be a lot safer on the track than on those "favorite roads" of yours.
Originally Posted by BobbyC
This subject of "How can we make it safer?" is too dear to my mind & heart...and I'll be happy to volunteer time and whatever resources I can muster if it helps raise the safety bar at DE's. Every little bit may just go a long way to prevent those incidents that can be avoided...
Show me what and how it needs to be done, better still join me in this endeavor, and let's see if we can collectively make current practices better!
Show me what and how it needs to be done, better still join me in this endeavor, and let's see if we can collectively make current practices better!
11-01-2005, 09:49 PM
#72
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Interesting discussions here for sure and many things have already been said that are spot on.
I just want to say again that the popularity of DE's has grown expotentially. That has brought a lot of income to the race track owners. WHile there have been many arguments to the effect of track safety, we all recognize that no track is really safe. No argument there. We all know it and we all choose to do it. However especially for DE's which is drivers training and not a competition, I truly believe that we the drivers via the clubs we run with should demand tracks to become safer. There is simply no need in my view to sponsor a track that does not do improvements. For me there is no argument on track safety. However I do feel that doing DE's on a track that has plenty run off room, safer barriers properly placed etc, increases the chances of going home at the end of the day in one piece. That I think is truly worth the effort on our behalf.
I just want to say again that the popularity of DE's has grown expotentially. That has brought a lot of income to the race track owners. WHile there have been many arguments to the effect of track safety, we all recognize that no track is really safe. No argument there. We all know it and we all choose to do it. However especially for DE's which is drivers training and not a competition, I truly believe that we the drivers via the clubs we run with should demand tracks to become safer. There is simply no need in my view to sponsor a track that does not do improvements. For me there is no argument on track safety. However I do feel that doing DE's on a track that has plenty run off room, safer barriers properly placed etc, increases the chances of going home at the end of the day in one piece. That I think is truly worth the effort on our behalf.
11-01-2005, 09:55 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Z-man
Bobby - you misunderstand my points. First off, I knoew very well a couple of the instructors you have had. They all agree that you are a very consious driver - you know the powerful motor purring behind you, and you are aware of the danger of taking too much advantage of that power! In that respect, you have a mature attitude towards this whole DE thing - but that's to be expected given your all-around positive attitude and good character.
What I am saying with regards to the modern Porsches is this: while it is easier to drive such a car on the track, and put down faster laps, it is more difficult to really learn how to drive such a car correctly. Has nothing to do with the driver - it's about the car.
I once was given the opportunity to drive a friend's modified 996TT at Pocono - after I developed engine trouble with my car. Based on my pace compared to me driving my 944 vs. the rest of the pack and driving the 996TT vs. the rest of the pack, I was putting down faster laps in the 996TT. But I can tell you that the faster time came 99% from the straights, evenb though I had backed off my driving significantly. It was very easy for me to be sloppy and ineffective in the corners with that car - with all that power, I was able to compensate for the slow turns by hitting the loud pedal once the car was pointed straight. At the time, I was already running in the black run group.
Even drivers with a bit of experience under their belt can easily let the car drive for them, and forget the proper driving techniques that are necessary to really drive a car well.
Mr. Redlineman stated it best: the modern cars and their electric gizmos enable a driver to drive a car faster before it gets out of sorts. So when the car can't compensate for rookie mistakes, the "off" will occur at a much greater rate of speed. But that's always been the case as new cars join the mix...
Heck, if we all took this Driver's Education seriously, we'd all be taking stock 356's out there!
-Z-man.
What I am saying with regards to the modern Porsches is this: while it is easier to drive such a car on the track, and put down faster laps, it is more difficult to really learn how to drive such a car correctly. Has nothing to do with the driver - it's about the car.
I once was given the opportunity to drive a friend's modified 996TT at Pocono - after I developed engine trouble with my car. Based on my pace compared to me driving my 944 vs. the rest of the pack and driving the 996TT vs. the rest of the pack, I was putting down faster laps in the 996TT. But I can tell you that the faster time came 99% from the straights, evenb though I had backed off my driving significantly. It was very easy for me to be sloppy and ineffective in the corners with that car - with all that power, I was able to compensate for the slow turns by hitting the loud pedal once the car was pointed straight. At the time, I was already running in the black run group.
Even drivers with a bit of experience under their belt can easily let the car drive for them, and forget the proper driving techniques that are necessary to really drive a car well.
Mr. Redlineman stated it best: the modern cars and their electric gizmos enable a driver to drive a car faster before it gets out of sorts. So when the car can't compensate for rookie mistakes, the "off" will occur at a much greater rate of speed. But that's always been the case as new cars join the mix...
Heck, if we all took this Driver's Education seriously, we'd all be taking stock 356's out there!
-Z-man.
11-01-2005, 09:59 PM
#74
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Since many seem to agree that track driving has grown A LOT recently, let us not forget that if you increase the number of days/laps that are driven on track, unfortunately there will be more incidents. There are almost NO days available for track rental on popular tracks these days, at least in my area. If the number of track days has increased, but the number of incidents are down on a per day basis, then it has actually become more safe, no?
11-01-2005, 10:17 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by Bull
Since many seem to agree that track driving has grown A LOT recently, let us not forget that if you increase the number of days/laps that are driven on track, unfortunately there will be more incidents. There are almost NO days available for track rental on popular tracks these days, at least in my area. If the number of track days has increased, but the number of incidents are down on a per day basis, then it has actually become more safe, no?
What I AM pretty sure of is that a lot of factors are accelerating:
The cars are running at higher speeds.
People are being more agressive on the track.
The is a greater and greater demand for instructors and the average instuctor experince and ability is going down.
The is a greater demand for corner workers and the average experience and ability is going down.
There are more experienced DE folks, getting even faster cars and looking to puch the edge even further.
Also seems to me that more people are viewing DE's as semi-racing, or racing test days, than an education event. I don't really have anything against that, if that is what a group wants. It is just that it DOES lead to more offs and crashes. I don't know about others, but I certainly have more crashes if I am trying to run la ap record pace vs. just cruising around at 8-9/10ths.