RJay

Having just got back from instructing at a test and tune day with BMWCCA, basically a series of exercises with an 40-50 second AX course as well, I'll make following observations. Certainly, AX isn't for everyone, I think as Geo mentioned Karting certainly might be better for some given it too emphasizes control and adds racecraft. OTOH, a school like this for $40 on a glorious day like we had yesterday here in NE, well, it'd got to be for 95% of you.

While Z-man and I are on the same page, I'd just re-emphasize that AX isn't just about car control. Its often touted, deservedly so, but its only a part of the equation. As this was an end of the year school, for the most part all of the students that I had an opportunity to ride with had a pretty good understanding of how to manage their car. No fear of squeling tires, or sliding, they were, for the most part, at the level where they had to be reigned in a little bit. Other than shouting stay on it or don't lift a couple of times, I spent very little time with my students on anything involving car control. Most of the time was spent around line, vision and managing weight xfer all in the service of going faster (okay I guess thats car control broadly). In the end, every student I started with made a minimum gain of several seconds, but more importantly, I think they began to understand how to apply a seasons worth of car control in a thoughtful way in order not simply to be able to react to a bad situation, but rather to apply it in an effort to shave some seconds and avoid the bad situation in the first place. As to track time, certainly at a minimum every student got around two hours of seat time both as a passenger and a driver.

Since becoming a track junky, I've cut my AXing back substantially from aournd 35 days to about 15. Nevertheless, I still go, as I still believe I learn and improve from the experience. For the novices in the audience, all I can say is try it, you may not like it, but its good for you.

JimmiLew

I love reading these threads. Some responses are very good and well thought out, and others....

I have been in PCA for 15 years, both instructing and racing. Like Larry and other instructors, you get to see it all after a while, and every time you think you have, someone new and different comes along to test you once again. I will never forget the guy BANGING on the wheel dying to be set free at pit out before the first session even began....wow! You can guess the rest.

Here is the bottom line to REALLY learning to drive a P-Car fast: If you are a novice and have one of these high HP modern cars with PSM, ABS, and every electronic aid known to man, the best advice is to leave it at home for a while.
All these devices are just crutches that prevent you from actually FEELING what is going on underneath your butt. Sure, they will likely save you from killing yourself on the street (and maybe on the track), but these electronic aids wont help you learn that seat of the pants feeling that comes from driving cars without them.

The old addage is really true, learn how to drive a slow car fast, then get in a fast car and just fly is just so on the money. My advice is to park the ego & the expensive car and go get a nice 911SC or Carrera (or a 944 or 944 turbo if you like water pumpers) and REALLY learn how to make the car carve turns like a ski or a bike. Once you have mastered these skills and can take it to edge and still control it, then you are ready to get in your monster car and have a blast, safely and with the utmost of confidence.

At the end of the day, isnt that what this is really about? Having fun safely without having to worry about hurting yourself or those around you that you SHARE the track with.

Jimmilew

Z-man

First you have to learn how to crawl before you can walk. This most definately applies to DE. Be it autocross, a short track DE program, karting, whatever - I think we can all agree that such venues help prepare folks for the 'big track.' The reason I emphasize AX is because my region has a well developed AX program, and AX was my first venture into the whole automobile motorsports thing. AX not your bag of tea? No problem. then find anothervenue that can help hone your car contorl skills in an environment that's not as fast or dangerous. This applies to both rookies and veterans, IMHO.

Just another idea I'd like to throw in the mix:
Those who drive the 'slower' cars like 944's, older 911's, 914's are often consoled with the following: we drive momentum cars.

Hmm - so - what's a momentum car you ask? How does one drive a 'momentum' car? Well, the basic gist of it is to carry as much speed around the track as possible. Well, guess what? All cars are momentum cars! Doesn't carrying as much speed around a track the goal with all cars? The problem is that it is very difficult to drive with momentum in a higher horsepower car. If you screw up a corner driivng a done stock 914, you'll pay for it for the next section of track, perhaps even a whole lap! Screw up the same corner with a 996TT, and you'll pay for it as well, but it won't be as noticable - speed and acceleration covers a multitude of sin!

Thus, driving a high hp car makes it more difficult for the driver to drive it and understand what momentum driving is all about. More difficult, but not impossible.

-Z-man.

BobbyC

Z-Man...you're missing the point. The debate's about safety at DE's. How we make the events safer? Most here already agree that drivers need honed skills...the question is how does one effectively raise the bar?

It's not a pissing contest about the merits/demerits of 996TT's and 944's!

RedlineMan

The bottom line is...

Short of having the luxury (and it is just that) of having the staff and venue to run a small course ground school program, the Green group is where you hone your skills. The fact is that most folks will come to the Green group stone cold novices, and learn their chops there. Some will have more aptitude than others, and the group will have to manage the situation to their best advantage.

I had a student recently that did not do well in a crowd. He was a decent driver on his own, but lost concentration and did not manage his intervals at all well when confronted with slower traffic. I wanted him to stay right where he was and learn to deal with it, but it became apparent that this was not working well, so I moved him up. His driving was much better after that, but I know that the lessons in traffic management that he (everyone) sorely needed to learn were left on the table to some degree. That is not good!

For anyone who is far ahead of the rookie curve, your best bet for escaping the pitfalls of the Green group is to improve rapidly and get moved up. There is nothing you can do about the skill levels or preparedness of the other drivers. Learn the important lessons there are to learn, and move on.

Bobby, you might need to change your thinking from going as fast as the car will go, to going as fast as the majority of the group will go. This may be pretty slow for your car, but the driver can still learn the rudiments of cornering geometry, control tasking, and traffic management. I (and most experienced instructors) keep my high-horse car owners in 3rd gear!

Driving the car you do, you will have to deal with slower traffic FOREVER. That's the reality, and you'll just have to deal with it. The little secret in there is that it will make you a better driver!

kurt M

John Potomac is indeed lucky. We have the JC and use it for a HPDC that is a prerequisite to DE with us. I would think the SC would be a lot to start with but not so much so that I would not take a 0.0 Green out on it.

As far as the newer cars and DE I don't think they area safety problem at all. In fact I think they are in many ways much safer than an early low hp car. The body is more substantial and the crash energy absorption is far better. There is less likelihood of the car turning into a cloud of rust dust on impact than in, lets say a 73 914, that the owner got for $2K and just got through tech.

I think the issues with the newer cars is one of disconnect. It is harder to feel what the car is "doing” power steering, power brakes, ABS, PSM all act to insulate the driver from the drivers actions somewhat. They don't make the car less safe, perhaps just less good as a platform for learning the nitty gritty of car control and traction management. Can it be overcome and the driver learns? Absolutely! I see it happen all the time.

My experience is that students come in all flavors and mindsets regardless of the car they brung to the party.
Safety is #1 task and goal of the instructor. Only when a safe and comfortable environment is outlined and maintained BY THE INSTRUCTOR do you go on to learning the rest. Then you start the enjoyable task of informing and nudging in a desired direction the mindset and skills to learn, unfolding an always evolving syllabus of items to your student and go on track to practice. Each session is a learning experience for both. The students learn (most of the time) what you are laying down and you learn how the student learns best and what is still needed and next on the skills list.

You can way overcook a corner in a 912 or a 996 TT. The instructor is the key to safety.

Adam Richman

Man, there is some great stuff in this post. I wanted to add to the idea of a disconnect in newer cars and say that I fear some instructors cannot feel the electronic mass come to life as soon as they would a car getting bent out of shape ( I know it took me a while in one car to figure out why we hadn't gone off yet - I was all crossed up in the passenger seat thinking "oh boy" and nothing followed ).

And it might not be that a well tuned tush in the right seat "cannot" feel it in a vacuum. Outside the lines of what you mention of safe and comfortable environment for the instructor as well, perhaps their feel isn't the sense on highest demand. Now how you create that environment for every instructor I do not know. I don't think the problem entirely lies w/ the student or instructor there though.

phils87951

My condolences to the Family.

One of the things I have noticed in the last 2 years or so is the speed at which the green groups run and how quickly they get up to those speeds. My point of view on this issue is that it has a lot to do with the driving aids in today’s cars. They are great at saving lives on the street ( which is what they are designed to do in the first place) but THEY DONT CHANGE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

Beginners get a false sense of confidence due to the driving aids. These aids allow then to drive faster than they normally would with out them. Whether it is done consciously or unconsciously. It very hard to tell when the systems are activated, they are extremely transparent.

Then when they do loose the car they are completely unprepared on how to deal with the situation. They get little if no warning signs don’t know what the signs are and are even less prepared on how to catch a car when it does start to slide at high speeds.

These aids are great for the street and for saving a “normal” driver as long as the car is with in its capabilities. A car on the track going fast or run close if not at its physical limits is a different story. As good as these systems are they won’t change the laws of physics. They are driving aids not solutions or replacements for experience.

to sum it up, IMO they are simply driving too fast for the experience they have on a track.

TD in DC

John,

I am sure you are absolutely right. I can't pretend to know how difficult it is to be an instructor. I imagine that it is very difficult if you care, and it is obvious that you and many others here care a great deal. I was really just trying to apply the idea you articulated when people were talking about how scary the green groups can be (i.e., you have a lot of responsibility for your own safety despite the errors/unpredictability of others) to this context. I am also sure that many green students wouldn't remember buy 10% of what you tell them before the first run. I still think the discussion would calm the student and convey the proper attitude towards the sport, even if he or she doesn't remember much of the substance of what you say. If you watch Rome, it is sorta like the idea Titus Pullo expressed when explaining why he is so successful with women: How you say something is as important (or more important) than what you say

Are you going to VIR with NNJR?

TD

TD in DC

Bingo. I could not agree more.

Bull

Does anyone have any valid statistics for all of these incidents, particularly car damaging incidents, that will tell us how many of them happened in the non-instructed groups vs. instructed groups?

Most of this thread has focused on "problems" with new Green run group drivers and/or Instructors, with a bit of new/high HP cars thrown in as the cause. My experience, particularly over the past few years (30+ track days per year), has been that spending a lot of time on the Green run group isn't really going to address whatever probelm exists, if one exists. When I think of the car crunching incidents that I am aware of, either in my own region or as reported in other regions, the Green group is not usually, if ever, involved.

Adam Richman

Bob W. I do not have any statistics and I think you are right that simply focusing on the Novice groups will not reveal a great number of incidents. I did happen to witness a pretty horrific roll in a Novice group at VIR Full in 2001 - ironically, the car was a Miata, drivers first ever school or driving event. No driving aides involved (this car may have had ABS, not really up on my Miata lore, but certainly no TCS type of devices there).

Ironic to this, the instructor said he knew he could have taken physical control of the car and driven it straight into the tires but could not force himself do that (in hopes they would not catch a wheel like they eventually did). Luckily they were both fine (think one or both were pretty dazed but OK - thank G-d for mandatory roll-over protection on soft-tops).

But that is ONE incident to probably somewhere in the high 2 digits I have seen that almost all seem to be in the solo-advanced, solo-not-so-advanced and instructor groups.

I do wonder however, how much of the eventual mistakes that happen in the instructor and solo-advanced groups occur because of lessons not heeded in the novice groups. Would we be TOO **** to pull a novice student into the pits every time they made a "if you HAD been at speed that would have been ugly" mistake? I know I have said that a good many times, I wonder how much weight that sentance actually carries though.

Bull

That is my experience also. I do believe that a significant part of the problem is lack of experience in what to do when things go wrong at a significant speed. That experience is difficult to obtain, and cars are faster and "driver aids" are in more frequent use now. Things often "go bad" at higher speeds today, I believe.

Regarding instructing, if a student makes a "if you had been at speed that would have been ugly" mistake, I give the brief input at the time, then discuss it at length after the run. If it happens more than once, or the student doesn't appear to understand, I would come into the Pits for a discussion immediately.

38D

Yes, that and going faster in all run groups. A few years ago only a handful of people could break 60 at Lime Rock. Now the entire last race group does it. The same is true at DEs at well, where everyone is going faster because of more HP and better tires.

I would like to see mandatory safety equiptment for all non-instructed DE groups.

}{arlequin

orly? got me tired....


ok, seriously... back to the topic....

there is a general intent not to overload a green driver with too much information, so track position as well as smoothness are what's initially paramount

however, would green students (without any bad habits) benefit from some additional info? for example, the debate about shuffle steering/hand position. if it's a new driver, and doesn't know any better, would it be worthwhile to tell her/him that there *almost always* really is no need to move the hands? it's probably not the kind of information that would lead to overload, could be done in the paddock, away from the speed and excitement of driving, and would instill a very nice habit from the beginning. like golf or billiards etc, isn't it easier to learn the proper habit than to un-learn the improper?