Geo

Dave MacPherson lost his life Friday racing in a BMWCCA club race.

This has been a very tragic year.

Things happen in racing. They should be quite rare indeed in DE.

RJay

I was hoping it wasn't true as I hadn't seen any specific reports. Very sad. Sort of feel like the devil's chasing us this year. Theres been a death at 3 of the 4 tracks I've run on this year. Sigh...

Gator_86_951

Certainly give you pause for thought. Suncoast has a very very low incident of problems @ Sebring. There is a ton of run-off room though. Even so, we barely even have anybody go off-track. I guess there is a wall out in turn 15 area now permenantly. Might create some issues. Haven't been to Sebring since May of this year.

Truly unfortunate about Dave. Everybody be careful and mindful of what you are doing out there.

A big solution to the DE problem is to increase the cost of the day itself and reduce the number of drivers in each run group. Provided of course the number of cars seems to be producing the problem. I have found many of the DEs to be really crowded. Mostly I get nervous about other drivers. Especially the two times I have had to run in an instructed group as a solo driver.

DJF1

Damn, that turn 7 has wrecked a lot of cars. I always hated that turn. The problem the way I see it is that things will happen n mater what at speed. Even if you are not at 10/10ths, you still go relatively fast and speed does not differentiate between race and DE. Hopefully the tracks also will become "safer" ( read more run off room etc) by having the owners reinvest some of the money they collect for improvements. Turn 7 at TWS can certainly see improvements for sure.
Just be carefull out there guys and have all the safety equipment on that you can afford to have.
Robert , which run group the accident happened?

RedlineMan

Your points are well taken too!

Of course! Don't get the shorts wadded, Bobby. I wasn't preaching at you, just suggesting a different outlook. Like the guy that screams endlessly that he had the right-of-way in an intersection when some dope runs a redlight and T-bones him. Rights obviously did nothing to keep him from getting hit, did they? What WOULD have is paying freaking attention! The dope was absolutely in the wrong, but it was HIS fault he got hit, not the dope who ran the light! That's the way I look at it. Life is about awareness to me. I realize that may sound rather strange, but...

Of course it would be nice to require driving prep before taking to the track. Some groups do. How many have a skid pad at their disposal? Autocross? Ground school? Very nice idea, but sadly not always practical or possible.

Oh... and you're a green group driver with a monster car, eh? Guess you should expect to get held up a little. You could pull 4 plug wires and STILL catch the pack. That is the problem with those cars in novice groups. The driver may fit the pace, but the ride does not. Nothing against owning a dream car, but it's the wrong one for your current purposes, sadly.

Well... I understand your point, but you can't argue with prophylactics, Bobby. If one feels that they are always safe and within their own control out there, they are either slow or stupid. Babble? I think not. Sincere interest and learned discussion of an important topic. It's where this sport is going. You can get on board, or get left behind.

That has nothing to do with driver ability. Yes, it would be nice if all drivers came in as equal intermediates, but that is not realistic. If you feel your group should institute such a program, I'm sure no one would shout you down if you volunteered to start one. It is a great idea. Now... all you need to do is figure out where to do it, with what, and whom? You will find it is a MONSTEROUS amount of work. Sadly, too much for most groups. I agree with you, but...

It's just another slice of real life out there. You have to deal with what is. Change what you can, accept what you can't, and deal with all of it in any event. If you can't get any clear track with the organization you are running with, you need to find a different one, I guess.

JCP911S

Not sure there are more incidents, but I do think the new cars are both faster and more capable, so that a novice can push a Boxster, 993, 996, Turbo pretty hard before they let go.... as a result, when an incident does occur, it is at a much higher speed.

When I started even the Red Group drivers were pretty much drivng slightly modified cars with street tires... today even Blue students are showeing up with almost race prepped cars.

Larry Herman

One of the added problems in DE's besides the cars are the drivers themselves. When I started driving at 16, autocrosses were every weekend from April to October. I probably ran 15 a year or more until I started running track events 12 years later. By a conservative estimate, that's around 500 hours of car control training. And though that was excessive, even up to the 90's most people got few years of autocrossing under their belts before they ventured out onto the track. Back then, many of the novice drivers came in with a pretty good foundation.

That doesn't happen anymore. In our area, there are less than 8 autocrosses per season now, mostly through SCCA, with most courses being under 30 seconds. It seems like everyone in PCA who wants to learn to drive goes straight to DE's. And I hear of green students getting solo'd (and expecting to) at their first event! That's less than 2 hours of track time, and no car control training. It is no wonder that there are too many novice accidents.

Another problem that our region is working towards is 1 student per event. I think that that should be mandatory. That way you can ride with your student for the whole event, and spend a good deal of time one to one off the track as well. If you want them to solo, you can just sit there quietly, and then evaluate them after the session. And then we could be more available for that occasional ride with a white (solo'd intermediate) or even black group driver. I don't feel that it is possible to provide that much attention with 2 students, and enjoy your own time as well.

BrianKeithSmith

Well said Larry! The last event I went to, I had 3 students for the entire day on Saturday. There were 5 run groups, so I had 1 session to rest in between all of the car-hopping. Not only did I not have time to devote attention to the students, I was so tired by the end of the day, I wasn't even talking in the cars. To me, that's not very beneficial. Luckily it wasn't a hot weekend, or else I wouldn't have been able to keep up I don't think.

Sort of off-topic from this thread, but I wanted to give a hearty "AMEN" to what you said!

Brian

BobbyC

No matter how one slices, dices or explains away novice/rookie related safety concerns there is one sure way of preventive enhancement...a basic skills proficiency test!

It matters little where the novice acquired such skills...performance driving schools, autocrosses, private instruction or whatever...but they have to have the basic skills and the right attitude.

Like with golf, most modern golf clubs and facilities would wlecome any duffer who can pay the greens fee without regard to how slow their play, how much they tear up the course, how frustrating they make the day for others on the course. I suspect the same $$$ revenues are a significant incentive for many DE sponsors that anyone with a car and an entry fee is welcome.

The better (both in quality and the experience) golf clubs have a mandatory (if unspoken) policy...just don't let anyone on the golf course if they can't break 90! And that's the reason such clubs rank in the upper echelons of quality and experience.

Why can't such a philosophy be applied to DE's...where the risks are far greater than merely having a bad day on the links?

RedlineMan

Bobby;

I don't think you will find anyone here who will fundamentally disagree with your point. Of course, it is an excellent one. I think the answer was given in this pargraph from my last note

I don't think you will find a lot of registrars who can spare the time to carefully evaluate the driving experience of each applicant. Further, to then expect them to weed out those that they feel do not meet the expectation of the organization is too much. Even if that job is pushed off to the Chief Instructor, well, they already have a lot to do themselves.

You can have first time students who do marvelously and long time autocrossers that are a nightmare. I'm not sure that you can truly screen people effectively. In all honesty, I think things are working pretty well as is. I think the biggest problem we face is the super cars that mask the fact that the driver long since ran out of talent. I think the solution lies in the Instructors needing to REALLY keep people on a short leash.

RedlineMan

Hey;

Larry makes good points as always, but the last one resonates with me, and Brian's experience reinforces it, mirroring my own. I personally will not instruct for a group if I know going in I will have two students. I'm perfectly willing to help the CI out if they are jammed up, but... I don't have the energy to totally devote myself to TWO people's well being and success, not to mention go out and have my own fun.

Larry Herman

A funny but appropriate story here:

When I first started instructing I wound up with a fairly head-strong student. We went spinning off at T1 at Summit Point, and came into the pits. Potomac's chief instructor, Alan Friedman, came over to the left side of the car and said to the driver in a stern voice "I want to talk to you". The next session we went spinning off at T1 again, and we again came into the pits. Alan Friedman came over to the right side of the car and said to ME in a stern voice "I want to talk to YOU"!

You get the idea.

Bob Rouleau

Great thread guys!. Larry, our region enforces the one student per instructor rule for exactly the reasons you suggest.

John - I agree with your view. In green, a driver has one task - learn how to drive. Speed is not an issue - learn the line, unlearn what you "thought" was smoothness". Sometimes, students understand this and are content to learn how to drive. More often though, they are there to go fast - the ability to pay for a fast and expensive car seems to give them the idea that they have automatically been gifted with the talent required to exploit the new TT or what have you.

I'm concerned because our region has had an enviable safety record for DE - we've had (to my frustration) one incident per season over the past five years. An incident is defined as any accident which damages a car - even if it means a scrape on the fender. We do 15 track days per season with an average of 140 cars per event. This past season we had 4 incidents. None involved injury but three of them needed a flat-bed. This sucks! The cars are certainly faster - the novices are now going as fast as iinstructors did ten years ago. New cars (and there are a LOT of them) are easier to drive - PSM may inspire a false sense of security. Of course in the battle of electronics versus physics, the latter wins, often with unpleasant consequences. I still want a mod which will allow an instructor to know if the driver is smooth or perhaps traction control is preventing his "mash the throttle" exit from turning into an incident. This opens a sidebar - when ABS was introduced, insurance companies and automakers felt it would reduce accidents. It didn't. The average driver believed that ABS would exceed the limits of physics and the statistics showed no reduction in accidents on ABS equipped cars. Is it possible that PSM is doing the same?

John (again), I am also concerend because this season we had more spins in the instructor group than ever before. In my book, instructors are expected to seet the example on and off track. Seeing them spinning is not sending the right message to participants! Yeah I am reading them the riot act, but if you've dealt with this, I'd welcome your input.

Lastly, one of the problems (and the source of two incidents this season) are out of region drivers. We maintain a nifty database of everyone who participates - such that if John comes back to us next year, he'll automatically go iinto the Red group. When we get new folks we base our placement in run groups on their "expereince" as filled out on the entry form. Either some people lie, or some regions have standards which are very different from ours! Anyone who has not driven our track is given a check ride. Normally this is just to show them the right way around our 15 turns. Too often it turns out to be a full time instructing job. We busted a couple of people from Black to Green! this year. Arrgh.

Rgds,

kurt M

Potomac is a one to one instructor/student ratio for the most part. We require a HPDC or a certain # of AX days before you can do a DE. I have been doing this for only 6 years and even in the short time I have been at it have seen the cars change for the faster. The type and cost of the cars seems to have gone up. I too wonder if there are more wrecks. In my limited experence the #s seens to be about the same, this years DE related deaths aside.
I never sign off 0.0s on the first weekend and do not often sign off a green or even a blue student unless they show good mind set, have the basics down and want to drive solo. When I do, I sometimes tell them that I am going to X corner to watch with X being the weakest of the students corners. I let them know that i'm watching for XXX and if they XXX I will call up to pit out and get them black flagged for a conversation. Sometimes I really do go to the corner too....

DE seems to be growing in numbers. Events, locations and number of people driving all seem to be increasing. Is this the case? I know the number of locations is increasing on the east coast but are the number of drivers increasing as well?

tntporsche

Amen to that . . .