kurt M

Yes.

I make a point to always try and type the same words I would say face to face. Being polite and a member of a society is not a here or there thing, it is all the time, everywhere and to all people.

IMO this is a case someone who is an idiot savant of notable measure. Based on the communication Tim has presented on Rennlist he is theory or paper smart but mind numbingly inept in interpersonal communication skills. Other than for head shaking amusement Tim started out and has remained a distraction or detraction to this forum. If he were able to behave politely he and his mental prowess could and would be a welcome addition to the community and many have pointed this out time and again.
If you use the previously mentioned historical thread as an example you will see many of the things I base this opinion on. Having little to no ability to ponder other points or be open to having a pet UNTESTED theory be questioned, Tim only belittles and denigrates others who offer up real world data. Tim belittles and dismisses with poor form folks with any non supporting information. If you care to offer up information or real world data that contradicts the theory at hand you are answered in a manner that exudes the opinion that you obviously stupid and/or just don’t have the mental capacity to understand it. Tim’s ideas regardless of merit are washed away by his poor communication skills. It is not the fault of others to be unable to ignore repeated insults.
If behaving badly or in a fashion that was incorrect for the group I was participating in I would hope that a fellow member of the group would make me aware of it. In Tim’s case many a person has done so and with class and control in communicating it to him. Not only has this well meant advice been ignored but the insults to fellow list member’s intelligence and character direct and indirect have continued unabated.
As an absurdum ad infinitum example. I am in a room with other people and I was dispensing good ideas while bending over and grunting out a big pile of cr@p on the floor, which do you think folks would note? Regardless of how a good idea is if you are socially throwing your poop at others you will be dismissed and disliked. Why should the members of this forum be subject to being denigrated time and again by anyone? We don't have to work with, work for or live with him. The sad thing is it is wholly unnecessary. To someone that is not quite as lacking in the ability to get along with others it hard to fathom why Tim cannot learn some basic diplomatic or group dynamic skills. Until then he is a mostly unfunny class clown at best and a mentally lacking pest at worst.

I would say this Face to Face. Not gladly, but with conviction.

Kurt

trumperZ06

Very articulate summation recapping CC's history over the past two year's or so !!!

Rassel

Seems like this place is about to go as bad as the Off Topic section. I can't really say I like the look of a group of people aiming to push someone out of Rennlist. I don't mind people firing at what they think is BS and I hope it just stays there.

kurt M

I think the aim of many has been to bring Tim around not push him out. I have not seen one word from anyone about delisting or otherwise.

TheOtherEric

Nobody wants CC gone from here. He tries to contribute lots of useful info, it's just his execution that's gone horribly awry.

Rassel

Aight,

I dont take any stand about the content, since I have not followed it. I'm happy to see your comments!

Professor Helmüt Tester

You reap what you sow, Sir. Question a 'fact' (in these cases, 'fact' = opinion or 'untested theory') and you're accused of being dimwitted, hard-headed or malicious. We've all seen that.

Most people here have nothing to gain or lose by spending the time to voice their experiences. I have little time and not enough patience to argue tangential theories of racing velocity that, when push comes to shove, have no real-time application in racing.

Full disclosure here - do you have a commercial relationship with anyone here that might be leading you to be a scold ? The vast majority of posters here have no relationship with each other, other than sharing certain experiences and opinions. What about you ?

ScottMellor

Let me preface by admitting I'm a desk bound wanna-be who gets to the track no where near enough.
I originally thought Tim was just a trolling for reaction. That is neither here nor there. What I do find is, in the cases of TOTALLY bad information being posted for (example the infamous Ghetto Racer and 50% of Tims postulations) that when the cognoscenti kick in to explain and debate, the ensuing discussions are fascinating and educating. Although I have little to contribute, because I don't know much, I appreciate the wisdom of the collective brain trust. Not to mention the odd haiku.

Larry Herman

You know, some of you (Rassel, Chris C.) are missing the point here. I don't think that anyone wants Tim to leave. Quite the contrary, many are interested in what he has to say, even though they don't agree. The problem is with the attitude and conveyance of that information.

There are times where I will offer what I feel is sound and tested advice, only to have the recipient disagree. That is their perogative, and I do not take it personally. Depending upon who it is, I still may feel that I am right, and they are wrong, but I can live with that. I am not out to change the world, or insist that everyone think exactly like I do (what a horrid thought). He needs to feel the same way.

If I feel that there is advice being offered that is dangerous or patently wrong, I will enlist the opinions of other knowledgeable people to help ratify my position so that the other party may re-consider based in part on that consensus. And if it turns out that they in turn question my position, then I do re-evaluate what I am thinking. I have found just about everyone on this particular forum to be gracious and helpful, especially when it comes to newbies questions and alternative ideas. But if just about everyone feels that the ideas being offered are wrong, then they are going to say so. What is wrong with that?

I think that most of the more proficient drivers will agree with me here. As far as driving advice goes, the proof is in the pudding. Give me your theories and I may listen. Be a driver of experience and reputation and I will listen. Go faster than I do in the same type car, and you've got my full attention!

Premier Motorsp

Professor,

No, I do not have a commercial interest that is leading me to be a 'scold'. But thanks for your cynical interpretation of the facts.

It is, however, in my best possible commerical interest that racers be as educated as possible. I do what I can to further this goal. I think that is a benefit to everyone.

It does not help me or anyone else when this forum is a place where new or different ideas result in a gang-bang.

Here is how this always plays out:

Colorchange says: I believe X for Y reason.

Rennlister: No, X is not true.

Colorchange: Would you offer some sort of reasoning why X is not true?

Rennlister: X is false because of reason Z

Colorchange: Reason Z is false.

Rennlister: No, X is false. You are a noob, so shut up.

Colorchange: No, you shut up.

And so on.

For sure Color could have treaded more lightly at times with his responses. A strongly worded opinion, however, should not be an invitation for an ad hominem attack.

FormulaOne10

I'm with Chris on this one. This piling on is out of control.

Phokaioglaukos

Let's get back to the X, Y and Z, and not the personal attacks. When the personal attacks appear to come, just try your best to ignore them.

I, too, have found these threads to be amusing and entertaining, but also educational. Challenges to conventional wisdom, even if not as well founded as they might be, can be very informative. I believe that one only truly understands something well after explaining it to another, particularly if the explanation is in writing!

Z-man

This is the way I see it in you scenario above:
Colorchange is typically the only one who believes in X.

People state reason Z, and most people here agree on the reasoning behind Z, based on experience and other sources.

Colorchange then disputes reason Z, and then goes on to say, "Well, I can't really show you Z is wrong becuase you won't understand it due to your infinately small intellect."

Then those believing reason Z get their panties in a bunch because of the name calling. And of course, a volley of name calling is returned to CC.

This is typically how things transpire when Colorchange brings another of this techniques or beliefs to the Rennlist table.

At first, people would say, "CC: you're a noob, you don't know what you're talking about." And honestly, despite how that may have been conveyed to CC, that was true - he was very new to this DE/track stuff when he first came here with his opinions.

But now, I believe people have a hard time listening to his theories becuase of the attitude that he has towards those who either disagree with him, or who question his theories. (Do a search on 'low character' in these forums for examples of this.)

While I have enjoyed some of the dialogue between CC and the 'rest of us,' the 'low character,' and personal attack accusations by CC is getting old. As is his unreleting quest to prove he is right and we're all wrong.

My $0.42,
-Z-man.

TD in DC

Chris (Phokaioglaukos) summed up my thoughts pretty well.

It is all pretty amusing at times, but now, every time a question comes up that might tangentially go to g-sums, the thread becomes a jihaad. It can be amusing, but I actually really sorta prefer the substantive talk here.

There are a lot of very bright people here (Tim included), and I get the feeling they are so wrapped up in the jihaad that they aren't really talking substance any more.

I started a sincere thread a few days ago, and only a few of you have taken the time to respond with on-topic answers, and yet there are pages and pages and pages of this jihaad crap.

If you are so inclined, please look away from the trainwreck for long enough and apply all those years of experience and knowledge to answering the substantive questions.

A lot of us around here actually listen to all sides of the debates, and I have learned a ton here. Although it is no substitute for seat time, it has enabled me to make the most out of the precious seat time that I do get.

TIA

M758

I really did not want to post here, but... I do think it is important to make one point.

There are many people on this forum. Some of which have vast driving experience and some have the skills to really back up what they say. Those that are good on the track earn respect.

Chris you are well respected because everyone knows your abilities on the track. So when you speak people listen. They many not always argree, but you have driving clout to back up you ideas.

Tim on the other hand has plenty of ideas. Many of these are different that most and challenge the "standard" way of thinking. Sadly however he lacks the driving respect needed to back up those statements. It is hard to to say "trust me this works" when we really don't know how good he is.

I know that when Chris Cervelli says... "races are won and lost trail braking into fast corners"... I believe it beause I can only assume you have tried and found it to be effective. Same thing for others on ths forum. There are many ways to learn way to get around the track fast. However when some with limited track time and an unknown skill level says the best way to be fast is to put a g-meter and in the car and max it out... Well what are we to believe? The theory does not seem to be complete and without evidence to contrary... why believe it? Now if we know this individual is fast then one can assuem that may be due to use of the G-meter.

It is very much like a chef saying I have the best recipe for XXX. We say prove it and he says well I think it is great, but nobody else has tried my food. How much can you believe this chef?