Dirt Track Racer

Ummm, please don't steal DTR's words of wisdom and try to pass them off as your own. See #10 above.

Phokaioglaukos

Glad to be of service!

JCP911S

You know you're fast when you take pole and finish first....

Being "fast" doesn't cut it when there is someone faster.... if you are getting spanked by 1-2 seconds a lap, "fast" ain't fast enough...Grrrrrr!!!!!!

Robert Henriksen

BrandonH

I think the answer cropped up multiple times early in this thread: If you run consistently up front, in races, in a spec series, you are a better driver than the other guys in the field, Period. In any experiment, you want to isolate the variable under study. So to "solve for" driver skill, vehicles would be identical (impossible, but closer in a spec series than elsewhere) Plus you've gotta be on the track at the same time. Lap times won't do it because the track is always changing, day to day and hour to hour (it's sunny/cloudy; ambient temp dropping/rising; someone dumps oil on t3 etc) Finally if we are talking about racing vs. qualifying, you need other vehicles on the track since aerodynamics/drafting is a critical part of racing.

I am now finishing year two as crew chief for my 12 year old in karts. We belong to a loose-knit "team" that races internationally with kids age 10-16. I know kids who have recently tested in FMazda, IMSA and one who is racing the FSkippy next year. It has been a real education and eye opener to have a front row seat watching children evolve into race car drivers.

Karts are a great way to compare drivers because they are such a tightly controlled spec class: identical chassis specs, spec tires, spec engines, identical weights etc. Furthermore, even within the spec, the things you can change are very subtle: rear axle wall thickness, weight distribution, chassis torsion bars, gearing, caster settings, tire pressure. When you look at the standings, no particular chassis/engine (or engine builder) stands out. Now, there are still two dozen ways a crew chief can make or break his drivers' race (probably another 2 doz I don't know yet). But assuming everyone gets the setup pretty much right, what you see when the flag drops is all driver talent. So a couple of observations at the end of my second season:
1) All else equal, anyone who starts racing after age 30 has about as much success against someone who started at 10 as they would showing up at the Knicks training camp with an X on their shorts. (what about PL Newman and a host of other late bloomer examples? Well friends, all else ain't equal in this world see corollary B)
2) Corollary A: Talent is a function of seat time. I've gotten to know a few national champions, and they display terrific racing skills. But I also know the hours they put in. I'd estimate the national champ in our class is racing or practicing 85-95 days/year: 3 out of four weekends plus test&tune. As I scan the list of front runners for names I know, I see a pretty direct relationship between hrs. of practice and finishing order.
3) Corollary B: Seat Time is a function of budget. At the WKA Grand Nationals this year, I pitted with the vast entourage of a west coast 11 yr old that included the engine builder, a mechanic who was former Brazilian driving champ, driving coach and 4-5 family members. He's a front runner in every national series there is. Now who knows, this kid could turn 16, discover girls, painting or eastern mysticism, and leave racing forever. But if he sticks with it, trust me, he'll belong to that elite group of drivers that leaves the rest of us wondering how it can be he's so much quicker?

So where does that leave sheer, unalloyed, native talent, of the sort that Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods seem blessed with... I think it exists in motorsports, but is pretty far down the list of factors contributing to racercar driver 'greatness.' The market from which tomorrow's champs are drawn is, in a sense, just too inefficient (because of corallaries 1/2) for natural genius to surface in significant numbers. In contrast, the starting line up of the Red Sox is drawn from an efficient pool of X00,000 ballplayers. Why do we have sibling F1 pilots, third and fourth generation nasacar drivers and half the 2005 Formulae Dodge roster who are sons of racer-types? Genes may be 5% the rest is Opportunity, commitment, seat time, dollars.

Now no one is likely to call me out, a G car driver with a handful of mediocre finishes. But if they did, the forum I'd pick is identically prepared karts at a full scale sprint kart track which no one had seen before. Although I'll bet I know a dozen 10-12 year olds who'd put us all away...

Larry Herman

Thanks for the dose of reality. I know that there are a bunch of us out there who are fairly fast, have great car control, and drive with the sort of zen thing that the unconcious-competent driver has. And some of us do drive pretty close to our limits consistently without spinning or crashing the car. But no one really wants to believe that the gap to the truely gifted is all that big, but it probably is.

JCP911S

Seat time, Seat time, Seat time, Seat time, Seat time, Seat time.

Sure there may be a few people blessed with mystical talets above mortal humans, but driving is really pretty simple. I'd guess most of the top 10 drivers in PCA CR, for example have enough native skill to be pro drivers with the right opportunities.

As a former musician I will tell you, driving is very much like playing a musical instrument. There is absolutely a direct relationship between skill and hours practiced each day. Proactice an hour a day and you'll be competent. Pracitice 2 hours a day and you'll be good.... priactice 6 hours a day and you'll be tons better...

"Great" musicians are made not born. Look at the career of a great guitarist, and mostly you don't find some prodigy... you find a kid who spent every spare hour down in the basement playing since he was 10 years old.

Unfortunately racing at any level is expensive, so if daddy ain't there writing checks, you are pretty much SOL... most of us start when we can affort it ourselves which means in our 30's and 40's... that means we are starting with a 20 year disadvantage

JCP911S

BTW... Jimi Hendrix reportedly had his guitar on virtually every waking second... he'd just hang in his apartment all day walking around playing riffs....

ZBlue996Kam

JCP, I did not know you're musician.

Yes, I had a late start in driving too. But it is better late than never.

I think fast is relative.

I was very fast in certain non PCA DE red group but slow in my home PCA region red group.

BrandonH

http://www.ovrp.com/index.html

well how about that? a chance to throw down the gauntlet! Any east coast rennlisters care to rendez vous in NY for a 20 lap kart race at Oakland Valley?

rockitman

It's easy for me. I know I am slow, very slow...at least for now...

Geo

I've often said, imagine if Michael Jordan had to start paying $100,000+ per year by the time he was 16 just to play basketball in an arena that might get him a little notice if he was lucky.

That said, I do think there is natural greatness in racing, but because the market is not very efficient, it's seldom seen.

As for the level of greatness vs. top level competance, there was a story in Road & Track some years ago about a great amateur boxer who in WWII had the opportunity to fight Sugar Ray Robinson. It was a great story about the gulf between extreme competance and true greatness.

Geo

All it takes to be a pro is a big check. Hell I could be a pro racer if I could write a big enough check. That doesn't mean I could put food on the table by racing.

The reality is there truly is a large pool of talent (compared with the number of available seats) that is an order of magnitude better than most of the best of us, but most of them don't get the opportunity to make a living at racing because even within that pool there are those who have or can raise the money and those who don't/can't.

Practice practice practice can make you extremely competent. That is what I am working on. But to be truly great takes something extra.

DanS911

It's interesting how the thread has taken on a kinda sad almost macabe feeling. How the majority of us have no hope!
I have experienced that same feeling lately as guys I used to toast, with faster cars than mine have continued to improve until they are now faster than me. Damn depressing!
Competition can do that to you in anything if you aren't careful.
What we teach the kids in sports is that it's really all about personal growth.
It's about doing the best that you can do, and giving your best effort at every opportunity.

I know I am slow when I am worried about what someone else is thing about how I am driving instead of just concentrating and having fun.

I know I am slow when I am worried about someone on the track being faster than me.

I know I'm fast if I am focused on something and I keep working at it until I can nail it every time.

I know I'm fast when I come off and say "well, that's the best I got, damn that was fun"!

I think it would help a lot if a got a bunch of new (slower) friends too!

JCP911S

Yes. By "pro" I meant being competitive in a professional level series like ALMS, Rolex, etc. Actually making a living purely from driving (hired gun).... woaa... thats a whole different level.... as you say, there are really just a handful of paying drives and alot of pretty talented drivers... alot has to do with hooking up with sponsorship, connections and just plain luck.

Fair to say the the World Class guys have incredible native talent on top of it all... but they are tiny minoity... may 20 in the whole world?