RedlineMan

Hey All;

I do not feel it is up to PCA to tell people what they must do. I do not feel it is up to the Host Region to make sure that the entire car is well engineered. What I would like to see is PCA offer more of an information service to their members. Information is a large part of why this club exists, and there are certainly a lot of lost folks looking for safety info... whether they know it or not!

To wit, I give you this little bit of info that I constructed as an example of what I think PCA should offer. What say you?

sjanes

I think one problem is that people don't understand how violent a crash can be. Everyone one that I talked to that has seen a sled test video was shocked by it (me included) and revised their view of safety equipment. It would be nice if we not only had a short document listing how safety equipment is to be installed and why (like John has above), but also a nice video showing a sled test. Most people that I've talked to about installing harnesses/seats say that they want to move around in the car less when driving. Not many talk about moving around less when the car is bouncing off of something. Human nature I guess.

Dave in Chicago

I remember when I first read how seat belts work, slightly decreasing the very rapid decelleration experienced in a hard impact. Detailed all the way down to the spine still traveling forward while organs have stopped... with commensurate damage as expected.

I started wearing seat-belts that day and never looked back. I think that was about 25 years ago.

Yes, good info really can help.

38D

Z –

How many club races have you participated in? How many have you attended? How many times have you seen a car go thru the log book issuing process? How exactly are you qualified to speak on the differences between a DE tech line worker and a club race scrut? Heck, how many out of region DE events have you ever done?

I will agree that the pre-event tech is useful. I will also say that the attention to detail at the at-event tech line is better today than it ever has been. But the at the track tech is of little value in its current form. Here's just a smattering of things I have personally seen (yet the cars still passed):

No gas cap on
No brake lights
Loose lugs (only one side of the car checked)
Junk in the trunk
Sticking throttle

Oh, and you don't even tech instructor's cars! Didn't an instructor just wad it up at the Glen, which he thinks might have been a mechanical failure? Maybe it's time to rethink that policy.

Now, don't get me wrong, the CR process has issues too. At the WG race, a car that smoked like a mosquito fogger on the grid was allowed to race. It later blew up and took out another car with it. In retrospect, it never should have been allowed out.

And please save your "get involved" crap for someone else. I worked the tech line at your region for several years, I spent many hours writing the track program that your region use to register people, I've been a steward at events and I built the un-used prama handicapping system. The consistent issue I see is that no one seems to be able to accept constructive criticism. No system is perfect, and THAT'S OK! So stop preaching and realize that everyone is just trying to help make things better.

So to that end, here's what I would do:

#1 - impound 1-2 cars per run group and do very extensive safety checks (includes instructor cars)

#2 - limit the at the track tech to green/yellow/blue, with spot checks for other run groups

#3 Re-assign most of the tech people to staging, where they should spot check lugs, open hoods, gas caps, etc.

TD in DC

I think that a lot of novice students are more worried about safety and crashing than you guys think. I was terrified for my first DE event. The bigger issue is education. How do you translate valid concern verging on unhelpful fear into constructive action? I would bet that most people who are intelligent and do not have an ego would gladly listen to suggestions on how to make their cars safer. They may not be able to remedy the situation at the instant event, but I would bet that most, if not all, would fix it by the next event. Maybe I am too optimistic, but Kurt M. has pointed out a few issues to me that I had not noticed (well, I didn't even know to look) and I fixed them all as soon as possible. For that I am grateful, and I think it is yet another benefit of the DE system -- Driver Education about safety.

mitch236

I have to say that I agree it is not the clubs responsibility to ensure that every car is safe. It should be the driver's (car owner) resposibility. The real issue is better information and education. The real problem is where to find good, factual information. The education part should be easy and could be addressed in the novice classroom (and should be). I wonder how much liability is accepted when a club starts giving advice about safety items (HANS etc...).

Phokaioglaukos

I don't think the clubs need to give advice about safety equipment, but they can point us to where that information can be had. I knew nothing about harnesses until I read the Schroth installation guide, and now I know perhaps enough, certainly enough to point out some issues (e.g., too long a run from anchor point to shoulder, improper angles, etc.) to my fellow drivers in the paddock and give them the URL to the Schroth info. Would I have welcomed a clearinghouse at the club, in hardcopy or online, for resources like the Schroth manual? You bet!

JCP911S

Absolutely. "Novices" are novices because they don;t know much. All of the scary/poor installations of safety equipment (including mine over the years) has been well intentioned but badly thought out.

Education on safety equipment has a long way to go to catch up with the brake-point/apexes stuff.... but is equally, if not more important IMHO

924RACR

Ensuring safety? Maybe it's the Automotive Safety Engineer in me, but that very concept scares me! Simply put, you can't! Ever read the warning on the fire suit box? This is an inherently dangerous activity - DE or racing. There is nothing you can do to make it SAFE. You can only endeavour to make it safER! I personally continually try to improve my safety factors, and everyone else should.

As for the crash video link:
ISAAC Link crash test

That's the test for the ISAAC Link system (I was present for this test). Yeah, it's impressive. Maybe these are appropriate?

Bob Rouleau

Intersting points coming up here. Mark, I agree that this year has been exceptional with two fatal accidents at DE. As you say, worse than Club Racing.

In our region we've observed that the run groups are going a lot faster - better instruction, better cars, some combo of both I believe.

There is also a tendency to equate faster = better. This is not always true. Better drivers can go faster with adequate safety margins, but perhaps we are showing the wrong people how to go faster.

We talked about this at our recent Instructor Day. Sjanes may attest to our concerns. We are seeing more offs and spins in the instructor group than ever before. Are we pushing too hard? Has DE turned into racing? Perhaps our confidence levels are exceeding our skills? I for one am concerned. DE has taken a turn. It used to be aboout being a better driver, now, it has more to do with being a faster driver. One driver can be fast because of skill, one can be fast by taking risks. Both drivers will go fast. the former will have safety margins and the latter will not. I am concerned about this trend.

Rgds,

Z-man

Like I said, I'm not involved with Club Racing. But it doesn't take a lot to see that CR and DE are two very different venues of 'motorsports.' That is why my post above was focued on the DE tech process and NOTHING ELSE.
We check for all of the above issues. We have found many of them, espeically the no brake lights. But like I stated before, sometimes things fall through the cracks, and often a car that passed tech in the morning may develop a 'failure' later on. (Ex: someone filling their gas tank in a hurry and not putting the gas cap back on)
A point of clarification: all cars, including instructor's cars must pass a pre-event tech, whether that is the pre-event tech that our region holds, or the owner of the car must take his car to an approved Porsche shop and get an inspection there. This rule includes instructors.
Regarding the track-side tech: logistically, this would increase the track side tech line by at least an hour. The reason that instructors are allowed to do a track-side self tech in my region is because it is assumed that these folks have enough track experience to know what to look for and how to self tech.
The car you mention that had an off at the Glen had his car at the pre-event tech, and everything was found to be in good working order.
Colin, I know the amount of time you have spent helping my region - I appreciate all the work you've put in - your help has been very valuable. However, so far in this thread, all I have seen from you is criticism - you offer no way to improve the system - just criticism of it's current state. That is NOT constructive criticism - And you mis-understood my call for people to get involved - what I ask for is constructive criticism - tell us how to improve the system, and we will certainly consider the options.
Ah, the first sign of constructive critism from you.
#1: Impound and extensive safety checks: How can this be done at the track? IMHO, a car needs to be up in the air in order to best check the suspension. The pre-event tech is a more effective safety check, IMHO.

#2: currently, the track-side tech is for all student and solo drivers - only instructors are allowed to self tech. That said, instructrors are always more than welcome to go through the morning tech - I have seen a few do so. Never underestimate the 'second set of eyes' looking over one's car. What would limiting the trackside tech to green/yellow/blue accomplish?

#3: Staging is already spot checking various things, such as open hoods, missing gas caps...etc.

Ultimately, it is up to the driver/owner of the car to be aware of what condition his car is in. I check my car over before and after each run. If I find myself in a rush to get to the grid, I purposely DOUBLE check items like oil level, gas cap, tire pressures...etc. in order to slow myself down, and help get me in the proper (non-rushed) mindset.

To Redlineman's last post: Agreed - PCA and all the regions within should be more involved with informing drivers of proper safety equipment setup.

So Colin and others - what other suggestions do you have to help improve tech?
-Zoltan.

RedlineMan

And therein lies the problem!

It does not exist anywhere that I know of. There is no one-source option for learning about this stuff. You have to scratch and dig and claw at every possible source, and then have the smarts to put all the pieces together into a coherent safety model... yourself. Personally, I don't think a lot of people are that smart... or motivated. Give them one source, and it might sink in. Force them to seek it on their own - like now - and it won't happen to any great degree.

Schroth has gone farther than anyone else to put together a coherent disscussion - by a good distance and much to their credit - but it is still not complete.

Regarding equipment and experience - I have seen plenty of things in club racing, passed through tech, that were just mind boggling. Someone having been around for a long time makes them no more an expert than someone off the street.

To wit - A car must have a race seat and a back brace. OK, so this car comes to me with PCA and NASA logs well fettled. It has a Corbeau Forza seat, which is a tube frame with cloth stretched over it. It has a Brey-Krause back brace mounted per the rules. Did anyone think to wonder how a seat with nothing but cloth on the back was supposed to function effectively with a brace behind it? Apparently not. Good Lord what an idiotic oversight! Scrutineering my butt!!

What I am talking about is not telling people what to do, but informing them. If you show them the possibilities and parameters, then give them some idea of how the equipment works, they can usually make some informed and enlightened decisions on their own in quite fine fashion. "Here's how an open loop belt should be rendered." Here's how you do a lap belt mount." "Here are the angles that work best for belts." Not only the HOW but the WHY is given in explaination, not by mandate. The problem is that a complete discussion of the safety system does not exist [except on my hard drive! ].

So anyway, you guys asleep out there? I posted that safety blurb to get some reaction as to whether y'all thought it was effective in getting a point across and informing folks of the parameters of what we are dealing with.

Hello?

38D

I have 2 posts in this thread. One offers 3 suggestions. So on average I offer 1.5 suggestions per thread .



#1: Impound and extensive safety checks: How can this be done at the track?

It doesn't need to be up in the air. Check the safety equipment, check the tire pressures, check the brake pads, check for loose things, look for leaks, etc. etc. etc. It can be done. Be creative!

#2: What would limiting the trackside tech to green/yellow/blue accomplish?


Experienced drivers should know better. Limiting to novice drivers will allow more time to be spent per car and to help foster learning in our tech program. I would make the driver get out of the car and walk them thru what you check and why. I would also give them a sheet of the thing they should check during the event (tire pressures, etc.) I would have them turn the sheet back in with actual values to show they did it.


#3: Staging is already spot checking various things, such as open hoods, missing gas caps...etc.

IMHO staging needs a more club race like process. At a race, the grid closes 5 mins prior. There's no flying in at the last minute. If this were the case in DE, there would be more time for staging to check everything. How often does staging actually check each and every person for a wristband? Answer, almost never (actually CVR does a good job since they put a "pit in" person whose sole job is to look for wristbands, which seems to work well). Also, for 1/3 of the event, staging is manned by green/yellow workers. Is someone with 1 track day really going to stop the chief because they are missing a wristband? Well they should, but they don't.

I strongly suggest you try some other regions/clubs to see how they do things. You just may learn something.

Btw, if you ask for constructive criticism, don't then immediately explain why every idea won't work or is unnecessary (which basically proves my point on not taking constructive criticism).

Z-man

But without the car being up in the air, the most critical component of safety, the suspension, is overlooked. There is only so much one can see of the suspenion by just ducking under the car.

That said, we already do check brake pads, leaks, junk in the trunk...etc. during the trackside tech.
I didn't say it wouldn't work - just seeking more input and clarification from you to explain the comments. If I took all the comments that I've heard throughout the years that i've worked the tech line, we'd be tearing down all cars to the bare chassis before they got through tech!

As for newbie drivers and their cars - most green/yellow drivers drive bone stock Boxsters and 911's. IE: They don't have a whole lot of aftermarket safety equipment installed (harnesses, rollbars, FE's...etc). So we check all the basics, including brakes, lug nuts, leaks, junk in the trunk, throttle return...etc.

Sure, we can spend time with them checking their tire pressures, but doesn't the instructor typically cover pressures with his student? Isn't it also covered in the newbie driver's meeting? Also: shouldn't the tire pressures be adjusted after the first run, when the rubber heats up and the pressures increase? Besides, 'proper' tire pressures are very relative: it depends on the car (front to rear pressure of a Boxster varies from a 944, for example), tire type (street, R-compound, slicks...etc), tire manufacterer, handling preference...and so on. And often, it is difficult to tell if the tire pressure is low on a given tire, especially some racing tires, and some low-profile street tires.

Again, I'm not trying to shoot down your suggestions, just trying to show you my side, as well as seeking clarification.

While it is true that I have only attended NNJR DE events, I have spoken with tech chairs from other regions, and have inquired as to how they handle tech. And I have learned things from them.

-Z-man.

DrJupeman

I've always felt that Peachstate has a great pre-grid system for DE. For whatever reason it works: folks line up early, they are ready, there is a hand signal from each driver when they are ready to go, etc... For whatever reason, this level of rigor/discipline doesn't seem apparent when I attend various Northeast region's events.

As for constructive criticism, etc, Zman and I still have a charter to fulfill regarding reviewing and enhanceing the tech process for next season. I hope to be able to spend some time on this after returning from Germany. I'll note these ideas and Z and I can discuss them.

Z, on another note, not always a good idea to argue with the guy who wrote the track registration program...