J Silverman

I am getting ready to purchase a car for DE and eventually want to progress into racing. I am looking for soemthing that will be realtivly low cost and the various IT classes seem to fit the bill. I was lookign through the classifications and saw that the older 924s are classed in ITB. Is anyone running a 924 in ITB? How competitive is the car? I dont know much about p cars, so what should I look for? (options, model years, etc.) The 924 seems like a better (well more fun at least, I miss RWD cars) choice than the other ITB cars I was looking at (various VWs) Any help or suggesitons would be appreciated.

OGRacing

J,
The 924 when properly prepared and driven has the potential to be a competitive ITB car. Vaughn Scott has had very good success with his in the upper midwest this year.
There are downsides to this car too, parts prices and availability being one aspect. The other being developement,in that you can order "off the shelf" suspension and engine mod stuff for the VW's Golfs and Rabbits and the BMW 2002's but i have seen very little for 924. But i am by no means an expert on what it takes to make a 924 go.
ITB is a great class to get started in (I ran there in my first four years of racing) relatively inexpensive (depending on how close to the front you want to be) and a lot of fun.
A well driven Golf or BMW2002 will be tough to beat in that class. If you have any questions about the VW's in ITB feel free to email me at dave (AT) ogracing(DOT) com.

Good Luck

Dave Parker
Manager OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsport Safety Equipment

Bill L Seifert

J

Vaughn Scott goes by the name 924racr or 924racer, I think. He posts a lot on this site. If you want to stay with a Porsche, I think an older 924 is a great idea. I don't know where you are from, but there is ITB everywhere. If your are on the east coast or Fla, then 944 Cup may be a good idea. Where I live, 944's pretty much suck. I have been racing one for almost 16 years, so I am not going to change now, but if I was going to start from scratch, I and I wanted a Porsche, the an older 924 is a good choice. But, the guy from Ogracing speaks the truth, there are some drawbacks. I hope Vaughn seens this thread, and responds.

Good luck

Bill Seifert

1987 944S Race Car

924RACR

Welcome to the party! Where are you located?

I just finished the season off this past weekend (new pics and video soon to come, roof-cam enabled, awesome watching!). I came in second in points in ITB for the season, taking a 2nd and a 1st to clinch 2nd overall at the last race. I would've won the championship if I hadn't had to miss Race 5 due to a business trip overseas. No question these cars can work and work nicely in ITB, now that they've been reclassed. If only I had the funding to go to the ARRC this year...

Dave's right to express concerns about those areas, but I can probably clear up some questions. I've found prices and availability to not be a problem at all... most early 944 stuff bolts right on to these cars (like my OG Racing cage! Love it!), as the chassis is identical. Though you will want to get the M471 brakes (easily retrofitted from any 944 donor car, you don't have to find a 924 that came with). You'd want a later car, 78-onward, due to suspension design particulars. Get the Audi 5-speed (non-79), and put a diff in it (the 951 LSD bolts right in, been running that for a few years, though it needs a rebuild... or get a Quaife or Guard).

I was less happy with the early 944 suspension stuff - Koni yellows suck IMO for racing - so developed my own stuff; I'm now running 34mm rear torsion bars and 660# front springs (yes, stiffer than the 944s like to run) with custom-valved Bilstein dampers (check out my webpage for details). Getting the chassis sorted is easy, and brakes and handling are second to none.

It's the engine that's the biggest work to bring up to full IT spec. Milledge makes 944 motors, not 924. I'm not aware of anyone regularly building ITB 924 motors. I've built mine to date, and trashed a few in the process. Biggest thing is to keep the oil cool and flowing - big oil cooler. We've had a very hot miserable summer this year, but I've had no problem keeping my motor going strong all year (despite ambients of 98+, racing at 3-4PM in the afternoon, very humid and drivers sucking wind all across the paddock). Obviously Accusump and all the usual, plus a crank scraper from crankscrapers.com, great stuff, cheap, and well worth it for both power and oil control. Then it's just a matter of getting the power out of it, not easy. I don't think it'll ever be the motor car for ITB, but that's just fine by me, since I prefer going wheel-to-wheel through the corners to drag-racing on straights. Besides, we clearly have more brake than anyone in the class - can't dominate everywhere!

Getting to weight is not hard, even with a reasonably-oversized driver.

Since I've been doing so well in ITB, I've been trying to convince a local racer - who preps a number of local 944's and 911's for ITS and others, as well as Formula Vee's - to get started on some 924's... since I've been doing much better than his Big Porsches!

You'll also likely have to build your own or commission it - any already built 924's, perhaps mine the only exception, seem to be built to run at the back of ITA, not the front of ITB. They were only reclassed to B this year. So they won't likely be built that well, at least well enough to win. Those who've bought a used IT car will know what I mean!

Pics and video should be up this weekend...

M758

So Vaughan,
It sounds like you are basicly running a 944 chassis with the 924 motor.

Can the ITB 924 use 944 brakes front and rear as well as the early 944 suspension parts?

Adam Richman

Only if the cars are on the same line in the GCR and the ITS 944 and ITB 924 are not. And even whenso, you must take all the parts for that system, which would probably make you take front and rear, not just one (GCR actually says no interchange between assemblies is allowed nor is creating essentially a new model). The rub is that if the brake parts were superceded according to the manufacturer, I believe that's a legal replacement (not sure that Audi gearbox fits in there though but there seems to be so much interchange between the manufacturers ... it might be).

for clarification; I am not saying its illegal, just pointing out the limitations to the rules.

For example, there were two brake options for the ITA CRX Si (different between 1988-89 and the 90-91 chassis). The early chassis have the front disc, rear drum, the latter chassis has 4 way discs. If you want to swap the 90-91 brakes onto a 88-89, you must take the D373 front calipers too (which ironically has fewer options IMO for pad material) - you could not have an 88-89 D273 front caliper w/ rear disc, the car was never produced that way.

On the differing GCR lines, the 89-91 Honda Civic never came w/ a D373 front caliper rear disc option in the US. The car must run the front disc/rear drum because putting the CRX 4 wheel disc brakes on the car would constitute creating a model that never existed.

M758

Adam,
I guess I don't mean taking 944 part directly, but was there a 924 version that came from the factory with 944 brakes. I know some are use 4 lug suspension and others use 5 lug. The 4 lug are mostly VW parts where as the 5 lug are Porsche parts that I think the early 944's used. With respect to the gearbox I think some of later 924 used the same Audi gearbox as did the 944.

Front and rear 944 suspensions I think were the same as the late 924 Suspensions as well.

That is really what I am talking about. Seems to me the many later 924 parts were carried over to the early 83 944 (except engine of course) thus the an ITB 924 many be very similar to race prepared 944 using early parts. Except of course for the engine.

I am just not sure on brakes.

Remember the 924 when through alot of changes over its life and and IT car would naturaly pick the best parts from the 924 model range. It seems no suprise that many of these parts would be early 944 parts too given the evolution of the models.

Adam Richman

Joe, I added the "for example" to clarify what I was saying. I don't have a GCR in front of me but if you look on the line the (by that I mean "THE" car in question, not an ITS 924S for example since its not the car classed here in ITB) is listed, the parts just have to be tied back to that model. If the option for the brakes and trans are in accordance w/ that, there is no problem.

So supercedance (is that a word?) aside, the parts must come from the car that was classed. The gear box is the same. It doesn't matter if it fits or came on a later model that wasn't classed, it has to be tied back to the actual model listed in the GCR for the class it runs in. Again, its that thing about creating a new model that did not come from the factory.

But to your statement that the 924 could pick the best parts from the model range, that's absolutely not the purpose or intent of Improved Touring. Recall the earlier discussions Bill Siefert brought up the question of running stamped steel A arms on a 944S in ITS - the part NEVER came on the 944S - it only came on the 8v 944 thus it is not a legal part on the 944S. They are the rules, as assenine they may seem in several instances, they are to keep stuff uphill of the slippery slope.

Again, as for what supercedes what (according to the factory, not logic ) and what the car came with, I don't have a GCR in front of me and am not saying anything for/against what's said above, just saying in a vaccuum what the rules are pertaining to the discussion at hand.

M758

Well my point was that you pick the best of 76 to 82 924 (non turbo parts). I said nothing of 924S parts. Just 924 parts. I assume 76-82 924 are on the same line in GCR's. I do know that there were many revisions of the 924 during is 76 to 82 US production run. All of those parts are legal. It just so happens that I believe a number of them were also used on the 944.

It seems to me that giving what was put on the 924 from 76 to 82 by the facotory as standard or optional you can pretty much get an early 944 with the audi based 2.0L motor and narrow fenders.

I was asking Vaughan if this was the case or there were certain major parts I was missing in this assertion. For example some 924 came with rear drum brakes. I believe those were the 4 lug cars. Some I believe came with rear disks as 5 lug cars. I wondered if these were the same as 944 brakes or not?

924RACR

Adam is correct - but all 2.0L 924's (the ITB cars) are on the same spec line. Both brake systems are legal - the 4-bolt solid disc/drum, and the 5-lug M471 brakes. The M471 brake setup is identical to the early 944 setup. I haven't gone through, in detail, every last part number, but could if pressed to (which I'm not). I'm sure they're all superceded to 944 parts anyway, if there were an changes. No biggie.

In short, yes, this is essentially a 944 with 2.0L motor, skinnier torque tube, lighter-duty trans, narrow body, and 6" rims. A 924.

Oh, for the trannies - again, same spec line, so all the 924 trannies are legal. The 944 tranny would not be, but it'd also be a disadvantage anyway due to higher final drive. It works, can be used in a pinch, but not so fast. Diffs are "open" in IT, so you can run a locker if it pleases you.

As for suspension parts, there is no difference anyway except front swaybar mounting in the 944 - but IIRC swaybar mounting is free anyway, per the ITCS, so it's open season. Though I'm still using the stock front bar.

M758

Thanks!

Geo

For a full prep ITB 924 engine go to Don Istook in Ft. Worth. Don ran a 924 in ITA for a long time. He's also has a long history with 944s. Don's the man.

I can find his number later, but I just got done battening down the hatches for RITA (the only good Rita is a MargaRita!) and I'm just having a little downtime before taking care of the inside of the house.

Geoffrey

You may also try Rick Deman 845-727-3070 who successfully ran a factory 924DP and has good reliability of his engines.

J Silverman

Wow, thanks for all the info Vaughan!! I livbe in Northern VA (near DC). I am pretty lucky because both SCCA and NASA are active here, and Summit Point is just over an hour away. My plan is to buy a car this winter, and get any maintenence stuff done, and a few safety items (id like to have cage/seats harnesses) so I can start using it for a DE car next year. Id like to keep it streetable enough to drive to/from events as I can afford a car or a tow vehicle, not both. As I start to get more seat time and feel more comfortable with the car Ill start moving toward competition. I guess its time to start lookign for a car. From some research Ive done here and on 924.org, it seems that a car in decent shape should set me back around $1000, maybe $1500? I am pretty lucky that one of my friends is crazy about these cars(he drives a 77 that his father bought new in germany. I was floored when he told me it has the original clutch)so Ill drag him along to check it out when I go to buy. Thanks again for the info!!!

M758

Being in Virgina 944 cup is viable option.

I was thinking that the differenence in cost between a strong ITB 924 and a stong ITS 944 would not be that much.

Suspension, chassis, and safety gear would all be about the same. IT engine prep I am not sure about. I would think certain 924 engine parts would be dirt cheap, but others could be quite expensive.

That said the biggest advnatage is that in IT at 924 can be competitive in ITB. The 8v 944 has hard time in ITS.

You should however consider 944-cup. http://44cup.com
Mostly since there will probably be alot of folks to race against and share tech experiences with.