PCA I-stock 944 Requriements
09-07-2005, 02:53 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by Cris Brady
Thanks, I already knew the A/C was required so I wasn't going there. Thanks for the tip about the dealer.
On another, but related topic, could anybody here with a 944 n/a close at hand, go out and measure the rear hatch area. Length and width is fine. My car is 2 hours away at the cage builder and I want to order some lightweight carpet for the rear hatch area.
On another, but related topic, could anybody here with a 944 n/a close at hand, go out and measure the rear hatch area. Length and width is fine. My car is 2 hours away at the cage builder and I want to order some lightweight carpet for the rear hatch area.
09-07-2005, 02:59 PM
#17
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Al P.
stop putting things like that in writing, there could be spys lurking well it is common knowledge that my car has the 924S 5th gear.
Funny since in PCA the 944 is in the same class as the 924S and the 924S lets to run at less weight.
That is one reason I love 944-spec. None of this crap to deal with. Update backdate all you want. Hmm I wonder If I would tossed since I have 924S rear trailing arms in the car. Or would the the 87 top end and 87 DME cause a problem too.
I figure I am screwed anyway.
I'll just run GT and take my lumps.
09-07-2005, 03:00 PM
#18
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Al P.
You'd be surprised how little the carpet weighs if you peel all that foam off the back OR find an early rear capet.
09-07-2005, 03:02 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Bill,
I have heard of interpretations like that but have never witnessed it first hand. I think that is BS and hopefully that is not enforced universally.
But each scrutineer is different, has his/her own basic knowledge about porsches, specific models, years, etc. Then on top of that they have their own experience level, mechanical/automotive competence, and their own interpretation of the rules. So a ruling can be different from event to event and scrutineer to scrutineer.
Best thing to do is try to get a written response out of the Chief Scrut (assuming that he responds in your favor), then carry that document with you to each event to cover yourself. The event scrut should not have the authority to over-rule the Chief scrutineer's interpretation.
Al P. , AC was an option for early pre 85.5 944s. By the time you get to 1987, AC was actually listed as standard equipment. So by model year, there really should not be much of a problem with the rules on AC, but because not all scruits are subject matter experts on various options of different year 944s.... there is a problem. The early cars can also have manual windows, manual steering, and no sunroof.
I have heard of interpretations like that but have never witnessed it first hand. I think that is BS and hopefully that is not enforced universally.
But each scrutineer is different, has his/her own basic knowledge about porsches, specific models, years, etc. Then on top of that they have their own experience level, mechanical/automotive competence, and their own interpretation of the rules. So a ruling can be different from event to event and scrutineer to scrutineer.
Best thing to do is try to get a written response out of the Chief Scrut (assuming that he responds in your favor), then carry that document with you to each event to cover yourself. The event scrut should not have the authority to over-rule the Chief scrutineer's interpretation.
Al P. , AC was an option for early pre 85.5 944s. By the time you get to 1987, AC was actually listed as standard equipment. So by model year, there really should not be much of a problem with the rules on AC, but because not all scruits are subject matter experts on various options of different year 944s.... there is a problem. The early cars can also have manual windows, manual steering, and no sunroof.
09-07-2005, 03:08 PM
#20
This A/C thing is strange. IMHO a "non-optional option" is a bunch of BS. Something is either optional or not.
Just because "all the cars were ordered that way" doesn't cut it.... and certainly requiring a specific car to be validated based on window sticker and VIN is not only stupid, it conflicts with the "post-date/back date" rule. which states "[car] is allowed....i.e. is a duplicate in all regards.."
A 1983 car that is a dup in all respects to another 1993 that could have been purchased in 1883 except that the target car did not come with air conditioning... meets that rule. What I was told by the stewards was that if you could buy a given spec car out of the US catalog it is valid... "option delete" is valid if it was an orderable option.
This does not include "wish list" sort of things. Slant noses, flares etc...
All I can say is different folks have different interpretations of the rules... unfortunate, but racing rules are sometimes a law unto themselves.
Just because "all the cars were ordered that way" doesn't cut it.... and certainly requiring a specific car to be validated based on window sticker and VIN is not only stupid, it conflicts with the "post-date/back date" rule. which states "[car] is allowed....i.e. is a duplicate in all regards.."
A 1983 car that is a dup in all respects to another 1993 that could have been purchased in 1883 except that the target car did not come with air conditioning... meets that rule. What I was told by the stewards was that if you could buy a given spec car out of the US catalog it is valid... "option delete" is valid if it was an orderable option.
This does not include "wish list" sort of things. Slant noses, flares etc...
All I can say is different folks have different interpretations of the rules... unfortunate, but racing rules are sometimes a law unto themselves.
09-07-2005, 03:17 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Bill L Seifert
Hey all,
I was told by a tech guy, that AC was required, even in 1983 cars, unless you had the window sticker that said it was not on your car, by VIN #.
I was told by a tech guy, that AC was required, even in 1983 cars, unless you had the window sticker that said it was not on your car, by VIN #.
And the vast majority are using the caliper adaptors and not the full M030 hubs and spindles - which is technically incorrect. But Ive never seen an S2 or 968 pushed into E-progressed or sent home for that upgrade.
Anyway, my point is not to try to take a shot at my competitors in F class, I acutally do not have a problem with them running the big brakes - it was an option. The point is that you unfortunately ran into a very poor interpretation of the rules, and hopefully you can easily get this cleared up and become an active participant in PCA Club Racing in the future.
09-07-2005, 04:16 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Al P
Joe said he wanted to run H, I don't think the .83 5th gear would be illegal. A Euro car had the .83 5th, so by the rules,using Euro specs would move him to H. Once you start preparing, I think you can do all the prep changes. I haven't read the rule in a couple of years, but it used to say if you use a Euro spec, you moved up one class. By the way, though I had not thought of it till right now, some of the Euro cars came without AC Of course you would have to put carpet, center console, and passenger seat back.
What does everyone else think about that. I sure ain't no expert. By the way, even though my car is preped to SCCA specs, Tim Betteridge, and Jon Grand, in I class cars, still beat me by 7 and 8 places respectivly at Rennsport Reunion II. So driving still counts for a lot.
Bill
Joe said he wanted to run H, I don't think the .83 5th gear would be illegal. A Euro car had the .83 5th, so by the rules,using Euro specs would move him to H. Once you start preparing, I think you can do all the prep changes. I haven't read the rule in a couple of years, but it used to say if you use a Euro spec, you moved up one class. By the way, though I had not thought of it till right now, some of the Euro cars came without AC Of course you would have to put carpet, center console, and passenger seat back.
What does everyone else think about that. I sure ain't no expert. By the way, even though my car is preped to SCCA specs, Tim Betteridge, and Jon Grand, in I class cars, still beat me by 7 and 8 places respectivly at Rennsport Reunion II. So driving still counts for a lot.
Bill
09-07-2005, 04:20 PM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Jim,
I feel the same way as you about that brake rule. I wouldn't have thought for a second that the adapters were legal. I did my car the right way, $$$
I feel the same way as you about that brake rule. I wouldn't have thought for a second that the adapters were legal. I did my car the right way, $$$
09-07-2005, 04:27 PM
#24
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Bill L Seifert
Al P
Joe said he wanted to run H, I don't think the .83 5th gear would be illegal. A Euro car had the .83 5th, so by the rules,using Euro specs would move him to H. Once you start preparing, I think you can do all the prep changes. I haven't read the rule in a couple of years, but it used to say if you use a Euro spec, you moved up one class. By the way, though I had not thought of it till right now, some of the Euro cars came without AC Of course you would have to put carpet, center console, and passenger seat back.
What does everyone else think about that. I sure ain't no expert. By the way, even though my car is preped to SCCA specs, Tim Betteridge, and Jon Grand, in I class cars, still beat me by 7 and 8 places respectivly at Rennsport Reunion II. So driving still counts for a lot.
Bill
Joe said he wanted to run H, I don't think the .83 5th gear would be illegal. A Euro car had the .83 5th, so by the rules,using Euro specs would move him to H. Once you start preparing, I think you can do all the prep changes. I haven't read the rule in a couple of years, but it used to say if you use a Euro spec, you moved up one class. By the way, though I had not thought of it till right now, some of the Euro cars came without AC Of course you would have to put carpet, center console, and passenger seat back.
What does everyone else think about that. I sure ain't no expert. By the way, even though my car is preped to SCCA specs, Tim Betteridge, and Jon Grand, in I class cars, still beat me by 7 and 8 places respectivly at Rennsport Reunion II. So driving still counts for a lot.
Bill
Somehow I don't think that would be allowed.
09-07-2005, 04:28 PM
#25
You'd be surprised how little the carpet weighs if you peel all that foam off the back OR find an early rear capet.
09-07-2005, 04:39 PM
#27
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Bill L Seifert
Joe,
You are probably right, but let me know by PM if you try it and are successful, or unsuccessful for that matter.
Bill
You are probably right, but let me know by PM if you try it and are successful, or unsuccessful for that matter.
Bill
Well this idea requires PCA to accept a 10% weight reduction as mod. If not then my car is just too light so adding that much weight not worth it.
The other issue what happens with GT rules. If my car could be placed in the slowest of the GT classes then I may just stay there to not worry about all these little details and swaping parts to run PCA vs 944 spec.
While it would be nice to be competitive in PCA I am really just looking to get into a slower race group. GT4S it often put with the other fast classes making my life quite difficult .
If I could just be on track with Cars in G class and below I woudl at least be on pace with the car in the group.
09-07-2005, 06:01 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
RE: Euro -
Its a 1 class bump with no prepared mods. If you have any prepared mods, you go up another class
Its a 1 class bump with no prepared mods. If you have any prepared mods, you go up another class
09-07-2005, 08:51 PM
#30
Hates Family Guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Cris,
I measured my carpet - a piece 57" wide by 43" long should word, maybe get it a little longer as the carpet goes up the back of the car to the bottom of the hatch.
I've been following this - and figure there's no hope of ever making my current car into a stock class car. Just a thought - since Firehawk 944S2s are given a class bump over a "normal" 944S2, couldn't (and I know this would probably never happen) a line be put in like "Cars prepped to SCCA IT or NASA specs run one (or 2) classes higher"?
I measured my carpet - a piece 57" wide by 43" long should word, maybe get it a little longer as the carpet goes up the back of the car to the bottom of the hatch.
I've been following this - and figure there's no hope of ever making my current car into a stock class car. Just a thought - since Firehawk 944S2s are given a class bump over a "normal" 944S2, couldn't (and I know this would probably never happen) a line be put in like "Cars prepped to SCCA IT or NASA specs run one (or 2) classes higher"?