JC in NY

FOr what it's worth, if you look at the charter of PCA club racing, "keeping cost down" is not in it. In fact, John Crosby has been adamant about pointing this out explicitly.

M758

I know...

Alan C.

Colin,

You're right the 95 993 might not be the best tool for 'D' but they are fun, easy to maintain and fairly reliable. I'm having a good time with my 95.

As to the 91 964 turbo and moding the exhaust it is a real nice improvement for the turbo. Can't get much out of mine with an exhaust.

For getting lower times I followed a friend recently at Mid-Ohio and Putnam who was consistently faster. I made the decision to suck it up and stick to his bumper. It worked for me and I cut a chunk out of my time. Same porker 993 and same porker 58 yr. old body.

Would I like to have 100 LB. less than a 96, yes? Would I like to weigh 155 LB. again? Will either happen, probably not? Will I continue to run my 95, YES?

38D

In the 944 cup series, are there some people are buying new tires every weekend? What about the person that can't afford to do this? Isn't that exlusionary and wrong too? What should the cost to be competivie be? $20k? That might be too much for some people. How about $10k? Might still be too high. What about the homeless guy over on 43rd who wants to race...shouldn't we include him too? How about we all send in as much money as we feel like to PCA, they build 500 identical cars, and the we go race. Exclusionary and wrong...come on

The issue is that some people have built cars that don't fit well within PCA rules. Tons of people do this every year with DE cars. Should we really change the rules to help make these people more competitive? Realize that this would likely make people who did actually read the rules and built a car for a class have less of an advantage. Look, I was in the exact same boat with my former 914. It would have run in GT3 and gotten smoked, as it had only 270hp. The difference is I didn't think that the rules should be changed just so I could have a better shot to win. I built a car that didn't fit into the rules well, and that's was my own fault. Period.


This was exactly my point. You drive the car knowing full well that you can't win against a USA Carerra Cup, yet have a good time. This is supposed to be for fun!

TD in DC

All this talk about budgets made me think of a funny idea for a spec series. The classes would be based on budgets for the year.

Your budget would cover (1) the car itself (would use a different car each year or get the amount you spent on the car during the previous years you raced the car -- including modifications -- deducted from this year's budget), (2) modifications, (3) maintenance and (4) operating expenses.

The guys who do their own wrenching would have an advantage, but there is always some sort of advantage.

You would have to present verifiable receipts at the end of each year. If you exceeded your target budget, your car automatically gets moved up to the next class right there.

How much fun would that be to try to find the right base car that is competitive and low cost? It reminds me of the NASA magazine project cars . . .

It could be funny to do that with a bunch of friends, and could end up like a Top Gear episode. Imagine the different cars you might find . . .

JCP911S

I'm an a very tight budget myself...but....

Sorry, folks, racing is about preparation and that is about spending money, and there isn't a race series in the world where the guys who put more resources into it do not have an advantage.

Other than having a "claiming race" format there is nothing to do to stop that, and frankly, thats not even the point.

Is that "fair"? No. Who said racing is fair... ?

Unfortunately racing is about the Alpha Dogs humping the Betas and the Betas humping the rest of us and hoping that on a given weekend you don;t end up at the bottom... cause then you get humped by everybody, and that really sucks

M758

Hey how come in F1 they can talk about controlling costs, but you bring up the idea of cost containment in PCA and you get talked to like "Dude you should know better! Its all about the money"?

Well 944 cup does a few nice things to maintain an handle on costs. Their rules makers understand people won't race on unlimited budgets. That said a competitive 944 Cup is more expensive to build and run than a competive 944-spec. The biggest factor in that is tires. 944-spec use one tire for all cars and this tire is long lasting and relativly inexpensive.

I don't feel racing is all about how much money you can spend. The popularity of SCCA spec miata and Improved Touring racing shows that there are ALOT of folks wanting to race with a controlled budget. In both of these series efforts are made to limit costs to certain degrees. They understand that if the costs to run these cars goes out of certain bounds racer will simply no longer race them. In fact a number of SM folks are thinking about getting out as costs have bee increasing over the years.

PCA on the other hand seems to purposefully disregard cost as factor to PCA racers. I fail to understand why cost containment cannot be a part of PCA club racing mission. If you propose a rules change that is intended to limit costs then you told to zip it as that is not the purpose of PCA Club Racing rules. In any other organization that proposal will be reviewed and evaluated based on it merit with cost reduction or containment being a valid reason for a rules change.

It still however burns me to see PCA not realize that cost controls should a part of club racing. In 944-spec cost controls are a MAJOR aspect and one reason it has become so popular. Infact it is so popular the POC is orgaining two other spec classes. One for 911 SC & 3.2 Carrera's and another fro 2.5L boxsters. Clearly these car will cost more to build and run than a 944, but the projected build and operating costs are major factors in how the rules are being written.

TD...
Grassroots motorsports has run for the last 5 years a $2000 dollar challenge (actuall incresing by $1 each year to match the year). The idea is to buy and build a car that will complete in autocross, drag race, and concour competitions. The winner is the car with the best overall. The rules are only that you cannot spend more that $2000 on the car parts including the donor car(s). You can at most sell $1000 on e-bay that can you can add on top of the $2000 budget . Labor is not chaged and not limited.

RandPierson

I think that it's great for SCCA and NASA to put together classes where cost containment is a major goal. There should be outlets for drivers who want to have fun and can't or won't spend tons. At the same time I don't think that PCA feels the need to participate. As long as race fields are full at PCA events why would they?

38D

No one has said that the budget should be unlimited. It' just above what you are willing to spend. There's a difference.




Joe, you still don't seem to get my point. Cost containment is up to you. It's your personal decision how much to spend. But in every form of motorsports, money typically helps a car be more competitive.

Btw, I really don't see how 944 Cup is any different than PCA. Basically, the rules are exactly the same except you can rip out your interior and use FG body panels. Considering you'd have to swap the FG panels, it's actually more expensive than a stock class.

The issue you keep avoiding is this is about your own car...that's where your problem lies. You have torn out the interior and lightened it in order to be more competitive in the 944 series. That's great. Now you'd like to run in PCA too, but don't want to have to run against the faster GT cars. Well, maybe you should have thought about that before you ripped out your whole interior.

TT Gasman

Reminds me of the NHRA Super Stock (SS/IA) racers we used to run around with back in the day. On one hand there are guys on a budget who are barely fast enough to qualify, on the other are guys that blue print their motors and $pend hours tuning on the engine dyno each and every week. All within the rules mind you, but guess which car wins the US Nationals?

gman1868

Heh, gotcha

Just thought I'd throw out some rhetoric and see what happened

Like I mentioned in my forst post, all I really want is to have them change the weight rule to include the weight of the driver. Yes, 50-60 pounds does make a difference !!

JCP911S

Not sure that is entirely true... IMHO spec Miata is cheaper than PCA because Miata's are generally cheaper than Porsches... what does a Miata gearbox rebuild cost?.... if you lunch a Miata engine does it cost $10K to rebuild? Doubt it.

I suspect if you had "Spec 911" with exactly the same rules as Spec Miata, it would cost about what it costs to run in G or F Stock...plus the bodyshop bill...

Frankly, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably buy a Mustang and race in NASA, but I'm already committed to the P-Car so its cheaper from a cash flow to continue in PCA...

M758

Porsche Owners Club is doing Exactly that. In fact with G or F 911s.

Their goals are making the cars as fast as possible for as little money as possible while keeping the cars equal. The idea is prove a place were one race a 911 SC or 3.2 Carrera for as little money as possible, but still be reasonably fast and equal. They are planning on spec tires in set sizes (probably a 17" non hoosier). They are limiting the suspension to t-bars at high, but rather common rate. Shocks probably will be limited to rather basic units instead of super expensive dampers. They are shooting for a target build cost of 20k-25k I believe. Cars are intended to be stripped out. They are discussing the optimal weights based on what is achievable with no or very limited fiberglass and what weights are needed to achieve balance between the 3.0 and 3.2 motors. Headers will probably be limited as there are apparently many different ones and these can be very expensive.

The point is they are looking to build a class that will be fast, equal, and within a budget. Many POC folks are getting tired of seeming never ending effort to spend spend spend just to keep up.

Between Az & California we have some 73 drivers racing or build 944 NA similar to mine to race a few 944 spec groups. The reasons are good speed, low cost, and visions of close racing.

The idea for 911-spec in POC came from the success of 944-spec (GSR as they call it) in POC land. Folks figured if they could do it with the 944 they could also do it with the 911. They have been having much discussion about it and one key point is Value. One reason they are going to lighter stripped cars is perceived value. Since the 911 spec will naturally cost more than a 944 even of the prep did not (911 chassis just cost more that 944) the class also needs to be faster. It would not be good for the class to have a 25k spec class being passed on track by the 10k spec class. Plus the 944-spec drivers have seen how much fun it is to drive a stripped out car. Most folks are shocked how fast and nimble the 944 is once you get all the damn weight out of the car. So naturally one major aspect of spec 911 is getting the weight down since this is essentially "free speed".

They are not doing away with their array of stock and prepared classes. So if you want to run a full interior 911 in POC you will still have place. However if you want to race you 911 as fast as you can for a little money and have chance at winning spec 911 is place to go. If you don't have or can't speed the 20-25k it takes for a 911, but still want to race under the same ideas the is the 10k 944 GSR class. If you want to race newish car have a bit more to spend they are working on a spec boxster too.

Seems to me they understand that ALOT of racers want to race competitively and be fast, but do so on reasonable budget. Sure in racing some will ALWAYS be able to outspend you. That will never go away. However in good cost controlled class spending 2x or 3x will not get you a 2x or 3x return in speed.

Right now in 944 spec you can spend 20k on race car, but that will not make any faster of a race car. You can buy tires every event, but that will not get you a winning advantage. The only place spending money will get you a win is by driving more events and using that to be a better driver.

You may spend 3 times as muchs as the next guy in car prep, but it will give you 2 tenths on the track. Believe me 2 tenths of second is much easier to chase down and have driver skill overcome than 2-3 seconds.

JCP911S

I have a bit over $20K in my car (not including repairs) and it is a podium car all day long in G-Stock. Unfortunately I am not a podium driver but that is not the car's fault.

Sure the guys that win my class have 18 wheel transporters and professional crews at the track, but I have raced them head to head and I am about 98% sure if we swapped cars, they'd still kick my butt.

38D

Other than the spec tire and stripped interior, this sounds exactly like PCA F & G class. Personally, I don't believe that adjust shocks really help the average racer that much, as most of us have no idea how to adjust them. I much perfer my idiot proof, non-adjustable bilsteins.

I'd also like to know who they think that $20-25k will be able to build a competitive car. Here's my quick math:

Doaner Car: $8,000 (SC beater) - $20,000 (nice Carerra)
Shocks: $700 (non adjustable Bilsteins)
T-bars: $300
Sways: $600 to $1,500 (Smart Racing)
Turbo tie rods: $100
Adjustable spring plates: $350
17" Wheels: $1,500 to $3,500 (Fikses)
Spec Tires: $800
Headers: $1,500
Engine rebuild: $0 (do nothing) to $10,000 (fully rebuilt)
Limited slip: $0 (don't add) to $1,000 (add on)
Seat: $500 to $1,000
Harness: $200
Cage: $1,500

So my math says that you'd be looking at a range of $16-42k. My guess is that the fastest cars will all be near the top end, as the engine rebuild will be a huge factor. I didn't even include things like monoballs, which would drive the cost up even more. Net-net, looks about the same cost as a F or G car, but with the interior stripped.


This seems like the only major difference. In PCA you can't strip you interior, and in POC you have to be competitive. Personally, I'd rather keep the interior in my car than save a few pounds. It's also keeping more in the spirit of PCA, where many people drive their cars to the race.