All cars feel like crap at the limit!
09-02-2005, 03:41 PM
#1
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All cars feel like crap at the limit!
Time to stir up a rousing thread just in time for the holiday weekend. Get those old brain cells working and think about driving whilst you swig your beverage of choice. 
My premise: All cars feel like crap at the limit!
Yep, when you've got it on the limit of adhesion that sweet running GT3 or that old 914 will feel like garbage. Because that's what it means; the limit of adhesion. The front won't turn-in, it doesn't want to go to the apex, and then the rear wants to come around. The tires feel like they have no grip. That's what it's all about. If it turns in nicely, drives right past the apex, and then floats out to trackout, then I submit to you that you're not going fast enough.
What do you think? Expert commentary and novice opinions welcome!
My premise: All cars feel like crap at the limit!
Yep, when you've got it on the limit of adhesion that sweet running GT3 or that old 914 will feel like garbage. Because that's what it means; the limit of adhesion. The front won't turn-in, it doesn't want to go to the apex, and then the rear wants to come around. The tires feel like they have no grip. That's what it's all about. If it turns in nicely, drives right past the apex, and then floats out to trackout, then I submit to you that you're not going fast enough.
What do you think? Expert commentary and novice opinions welcome!
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
09-02-2005, 03:46 PM
#2
Instructor
Corollary to the premise: To learn the limit, you have to be *on* the limit.
Ergo: To learn the limit, you have to practice the limit...
Street tires get you there without life-treatening speeds...
Deetz.
Ergo: To learn the limit, you have to practice the limit...
Street tires get you there without life-treatening speeds...
Deetz.
09-02-2005, 03:48 PM
#3
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I drive a Targa with stiff suspension on the track. I don't have to be at the limit for it to feel like crap 
Before I got the cage, I actually had two body panels rub the paint off each other the thing flexed so much.
But I hear what you are saying. A buddy of mine and I were comparing tire life of the Victoracer. He gets about twice as many days out of his that I do. He says I slide too much. I don't think he slides enough
Before I got the cage, I actually had two body panels rub the paint off each other the thing flexed so much.
But I hear what you are saying. A buddy of mine and I were comparing tire life of the Victoracer. He gets about twice as many days out of his that I do. He says I slide too much. I don't think he slides enough
Last edited by sjanes; 09-02-2005 at 04:05 PM.
09-02-2005, 04:09 PM
#4
Race Director
When I drive my 944 spec at the limit.... Well it does not feel like crap, but I can understand what you are saying. At the very limit the car feels almost out of control. It feels like you just barely made it through that last corner and like you might not be able make it through the next one. You feel like you are slipping sliding all over the place both in the front and in the rear. You feel like you are always trying hard to get the car to do what you want.
I guess you could call that "crap", but in my mind I turn this around. If the car feels stable and completly under control you are simply not going fast enough.
I guess you could call that "crap", but in my mind I turn this around. If the car feels stable and completly under control you are simply not going fast enough.
09-02-2005, 04:09 PM
#5
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This seems somewhat strange to me and here is why.
If you are at the limit at turn in, you have to do something to get the car to turn in.
If you are at the limit at the apex you have to do something to make the track out point.
Given that you cannot be at the limit all the time otherwise you will not stay on the track. Seems to me the car that stays closest to the limit for the longest period of time during a lap and can still stay on the track is the fastest lap. No?
As far as tire wear goes, those people that can use a set of tires for 3, 4,5, 6 or more events are never driving anywhere near the limit. Period.
If you are at the limit at turn in, you have to do something to get the car to turn in.
If you are at the limit at the apex you have to do something to make the track out point.
Given that you cannot be at the limit all the time otherwise you will not stay on the track. Seems to me the car that stays closest to the limit for the longest period of time during a lap and can still stay on the track is the fastest lap. No?
As far as tire wear goes, those people that can use a set of tires for 3, 4,5, 6 or more events are never driving anywhere near the limit. Period.
09-02-2005, 04:13 PM
#6
Race Director
Larry,
As you know, how a car behaves at the limits depends much on the car and driver.
914's, Boxsters and other mid-engined cars have that 'spin like a top' tendancy if pushed over the limits. Older 911's like to take you into the hedges back end first if the limits have been compromised. While the newer 911's (996 & 997) have less of this tendancy, that back end can still come around.
If we speak of just Porsches, I'd have to say that the 944 series is the best 'behaving' car at or near the limits. It is a very tossable car, and when at the limits, it is easier to control than a 911, 914, or 986.
This past weekend, our region held an autocross. I run in class S5, which is made up of the 944S/S2, 951/S, 968, and 964 911's. I run my 944S2, and my 'arch rival' and good friend, Javier runs a 964. Both of us are on R-compounds with basically stock suspensions. So, last Saturday, we took turns riding along as passengers on one of our runs. Javi's comments about my driving were: "You aren't as smooth as I am in my car - you tend to throw the car into the corners and catch it on the exit." After my run, I rode along in Javier's 964. He attempted to do the same "throw and catch" type of driving with his car. Didn't work too well: we wound up going through the finish lights backwards. When my car's back end steps out, it seems that I have an eternity to regain control of the car. When the same thing happened to Javier's 964, there was little hope of regaining control. Side note 1: We have run neck and neck during this past AX season - last Saturday, I beat him by a mere 0.2 seconds! (Side note: he has yet to beat me! ) Side note 2: We concluded that the fastest times around the cones in terms of driving style would be somewhere between our two driving styles - too smooth and you'll be too slow around the cones. Too much 'throw and catch' and you're scrubbing off too much speed going sideways.
So - regarding driving a car at the limits - a lot of that has to do with the car. Different cars need different techniques to be driven under those conditions - I feel cars like the 944 are easier to manage on the ragged edge.
-Z-man.
As you know, how a car behaves at the limits depends much on the car and driver.
914's, Boxsters and other mid-engined cars have that 'spin like a top' tendancy if pushed over the limits. Older 911's like to take you into the hedges back end first if the limits have been compromised. While the newer 911's (996 & 997) have less of this tendancy, that back end can still come around.
If we speak of just Porsches, I'd have to say that the 944 series is the best 'behaving' car at or near the limits. It is a very tossable car, and when at the limits, it is easier to control than a 911, 914, or 986.
This past weekend, our region held an autocross. I run in class S5, which is made up of the 944S/S2, 951/S, 968, and 964 911's. I run my 944S2, and my 'arch rival' and good friend, Javier runs a 964. Both of us are on R-compounds with basically stock suspensions. So, last Saturday, we took turns riding along as passengers on one of our runs. Javi's comments about my driving were: "You aren't as smooth as I am in my car - you tend to throw the car into the corners and catch it on the exit." After my run, I rode along in Javier's 964. He attempted to do the same "throw and catch" type of driving with his car. Didn't work too well: we wound up going through the finish lights backwards. When my car's back end steps out, it seems that I have an eternity to regain control of the car. When the same thing happened to Javier's 964, there was little hope of regaining control. Side note 1: We have run neck and neck during this past AX season - last Saturday, I beat him by a mere 0.2 seconds!
(Side note: he has yet to beat me! ) Side note 2: We concluded that the fastest times around the cones in terms of driving style would be somewhere between our two driving styles - too smooth and you'll be too slow around the cones. Too much 'throw and catch' and you're scrubbing off too much speed going sideways. So - regarding driving a car at the limits - a lot of that has to do with the car. Different cars need different techniques to be driven under those conditions - I feel cars like the 944 are easier to manage on the ragged edge.
-Z-man.
09-02-2005, 04:37 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by kary993
If you are at the limit at turn in, you have to do something to get the car to turn in.
If you are at the limit at the apex you have to do something to make the track out point.
As far as tire wear goes, those people that can use a set of tires for 3, 4,5, 6 or more events are never driving anywhere near the limit. Period.
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09-02-2005, 04:42 PM
#8
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Larry,
My car feels better at the limit and feels not nearly as good driving slowly. Probably has to do with the locked spool and the the 2100 lb springs. It's like a shifter kart, drive it slow and it does not do much great.
But drive it fast and it sings at the limit.
Norm
My car feels better at the limit and feels not nearly as good driving slowly. Probably has to do with the locked spool and the the 2100 lb springs. It's like a shifter kart, drive it slow and it does not do much great.
But drive it fast and it sings at the limit.
Norm
09-02-2005, 06:14 PM
#9
I say, that if you have taken the corner correctly, you never have much
trouble with how the car *reacts* at the limit, because you've set up
the corner so the car *is* going where you want it to, at the maximum
adhesion the car can deliver. You're not changing any input at the limit,
because you did it right to begin with from the turn-in point, and the car's
current arc is simultaneously the best it can do, *and* it is pointed to where
you want to go. Yes, all systems are most sensitive (negatively) when they
are operating at the limit. Most cars have one 'weak-link' bias in their setup,
which will usually determine what goes wrong first when you go past the
limit or fidget at the limit, but for some cars and some corners, the car is
well set up, 'neutral', which means that if it's at the limit and you add any
more load, it depends very closely on exactly what you did, which way you
fidgeted the wheel, as to how the car drops off the optimal traction arc by
pushing more or tailing-out more, locking an inside tire etc.
Joe
trouble with how the car *reacts* at the limit, because you've set up
the corner so the car *is* going where you want it to, at the maximum
adhesion the car can deliver. You're not changing any input at the limit,
because you did it right to begin with from the turn-in point, and the car's
current arc is simultaneously the best it can do, *and* it is pointed to where
you want to go. Yes, all systems are most sensitive (negatively) when they
are operating at the limit. Most cars have one 'weak-link' bias in their setup,
which will usually determine what goes wrong first when you go past the
limit or fidget at the limit, but for some cars and some corners, the car is
well set up, 'neutral', which means that if it's at the limit and you add any
more load, it depends very closely on exactly what you did, which way you
fidgeted the wheel, as to how the car drops off the optimal traction arc by
pushing more or tailing-out more, locking an inside tire etc.
Joe
09-02-2005, 06:26 PM
#10
Race Director
With car that is at the limit you many many mid corner corrections as you need to constantly adjust and balance the car. If you turn in and it sticks then you did not go fast enough and are not at the limit. Turn in and make 50 corrections to keep the car on a smooth fast line and you have reached the limit.
09-02-2005, 07:05 PM
#11
Interesting question.
What does it mean to drive at the limit? I assume you mean "maintain a car at the fastest potential speed for that car on that particular track at those environmental conditions at all given points on the track, including through the corners." I imagine that you could throw a car around in a manner that feels fast but in reality is not really the fastest way around the track (I have the Ruf Yellowbird video in mind). That could feel either really good or really crappy depending upon the car and the driver's skills. You could instead drive in a more controlled manner such that you never exceed a maximum slip angle of 7 degrees. I could see how it could feel uncomfortable if you are dancing on that edge and trying to squeeze the maximum performance out of the car. I wonder if the car feels great if you maintain 7 degrees or slightly less (say 9.9/10), but really uncomfortable when you start to exceed the ideal slip angle that results in the minimum track time (say, perhaps 10.1/10). The difference between the two is probably not that great in terms of track times, but I imagine it is probably easier to drive the latter way, because you would never know you have exceeded the max if you drove the former way, unless you had uncanny driving skills.
Along those lines, I have never really understood what it means to drive at "10/10s." Does driving at 10/10s mean you are obtaining the maximum speed out of the car, and that if you exceed 10/10s you will have a slower lap time but perhaps not actually go off the track, or does driving at 10/10s mean that you are at the maximum traction level (which may or may not be the fastest lap time) and that if you exceed 10/10s you will go off the track? In other words, I can imagine that there might be a very slight delta between maximum indicated speed (as measured by the car's speedometer/tachometer) and lowest lap time, meaning that a very slightly slower car speed as indicated by the car's speedometer/tachometer might have a lower lap time because it is not exceeding the ideal slip angle (e.g., you are scrubing off actual speed by exceeding the ideal slip angle for maximum traction).
Of course, I don't have enough seat time to recognize if and when I have ever driven at 10/10s. I think I have, at times, probably driven consistently at 8/10s, and perhaps 9/10s, and then quickly exceeded 10/10s right before going off the track
Seriously though, I think you need a lot of seat time before you can recognize what it means to drive at 10/10s. I imagine most drivers think they are driving at 10/10s when they are actually driving at 8/10s because fear or lack of driving skills is holding them back. At times, I think that I am driving at 8/10s or 9/10s but I am probably only driving at 7/10s or 8/10s and just don't recognize it due to lack of sufficient seat time.
What does it mean to drive at the limit? I assume you mean "maintain a car at the fastest potential speed for that car on that particular track at those environmental conditions at all given points on the track, including through the corners." I imagine that you could throw a car around in a manner that feels fast but in reality is not really the fastest way around the track (I have the Ruf Yellowbird video in mind). That could feel either really good or really crappy depending upon the car and the driver's skills. You could instead drive in a more controlled manner such that you never exceed a maximum slip angle of 7 degrees. I could see how it could feel uncomfortable if you are dancing on that edge and trying to squeeze the maximum performance out of the car. I wonder if the car feels great if you maintain 7 degrees or slightly less (say 9.9/10), but really uncomfortable when you start to exceed the ideal slip angle that results in the minimum track time (say, perhaps 10.1/10). The difference between the two is probably not that great in terms of track times, but I imagine it is probably easier to drive the latter way, because you would never know you have exceeded the max if you drove the former way, unless you had uncanny driving skills.
Along those lines, I have never really understood what it means to drive at "10/10s." Does driving at 10/10s mean you are obtaining the maximum speed out of the car, and that if you exceed 10/10s you will have a slower lap time but perhaps not actually go off the track, or does driving at 10/10s mean that you are at the maximum traction level (which may or may not be the fastest lap time) and that if you exceed 10/10s you will go off the track? In other words, I can imagine that there might be a very slight delta between maximum indicated speed (as measured by the car's speedometer/tachometer) and lowest lap time, meaning that a very slightly slower car speed as indicated by the car's speedometer/tachometer might have a lower lap time because it is not exceeding the ideal slip angle (e.g., you are scrubing off actual speed by exceeding the ideal slip angle for maximum traction).
Of course, I don't have enough seat time to recognize if and when I have ever driven at 10/10s. I think I have, at times, probably driven consistently at 8/10s, and perhaps 9/10s, and then quickly exceeded 10/10s right before going off the track
Seriously though, I think you need a lot of seat time before you can recognize what it means to drive at 10/10s. I imagine most drivers think they are driving at 10/10s when they are actually driving at 8/10s because fear or lack of driving skills is holding them back. At times, I think that I am driving at 8/10s or 9/10s but I am probably only driving at 7/10s or 8/10s and just don't recognize it due to lack of sufficient seat time.
09-02-2005, 07:17 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by kary993
As far as tire wear goes, those people that can use a set of tires for 3, 4,5, 6 or more events are never driving anywhere near the limit. Period.
(Granted I drive a car that has had a few too many trips to the all you can eat buffet, if you know what I mean.)
09-02-2005, 07:23 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Before anyone can answer the question posed, come futher clarification -
The limit of the car, or the limit of the driver ? Two very different things.
Der Professor's Opinion (sure to get everyone's knickers in a knot): 75-90% of racers aren't ever at the limit of the 'car', they're at the limit of the 'driver'. Please cue the "Harrumph harrumph harrumph I'm a racer/DE driver and I can be at the limit of the car whensoever I choose !" responses now.
Face it...most of the time, the car doesn't even know you are there. It's laughing at you.
Cars with big aero (formula cars, sports racers etc. w/wings n'thing) feel like crap if you're not going fast enough for the aero benefits to take over. Talk to a ChampCar or IRL driver about what if feels like to drive one of their cars at 8/10ths, and they'll likely describe it as a pant-filling experience.
More opinion: When dancing on the edge, that car shouldn't feel like crap...it should probably just feel a little 'unsettled' or nervous. "Crap" to me says hideous handling...which no rational driver will tune a chassis toward.
BTW...we're happy if we can get 2-3 tanks of fuel out of a set of tires before we're on the cords...or on the wires. If you're getting 5+ HPDE days out of a set of DOT race rubber, you're not even warming them up. Just for consideration - when running an enduro at Gingerman in a 140hp FWD race car, we could trash (trash = cloth/wires showing) a set of Victoracer scuffs (our tire of choice for enduros) in about 3 hours...on the REAR of the car. Now...remember...all the rear tires do in a FWD car is keep the gas tank from scraping on the ground.
The limit of the car, or the limit of the driver ? Two very different things.
Der Professor's Opinion (sure to get everyone's knickers in a knot): 75-90% of racers aren't ever at the limit of the 'car', they're at the limit of the 'driver'. Please cue the "Harrumph harrumph harrumph I'm a racer/DE driver and I can be at the limit of the car whensoever I choose !" responses now.
Face it...most of the time, the car doesn't even know you are there. It's laughing at you.
Cars with big aero (formula cars, sports racers etc. w/wings n'thing) feel like crap if you're not going fast enough for the aero benefits to take over. Talk to a ChampCar or IRL driver about what if feels like to drive one of their cars at 8/10ths, and they'll likely describe it as a pant-filling experience.
More opinion: When dancing on the edge, that car shouldn't feel like crap...it should probably just feel a little 'unsettled' or nervous. "Crap" to me says hideous handling...which no rational driver will tune a chassis toward.
BTW...we're happy if we can get 2-3 tanks of fuel out of a set of tires before we're on the cords...or on the wires. If you're getting 5+ HPDE days out of a set of DOT race rubber, you're not even warming them up. Just for consideration - when running an enduro at Gingerman in a 140hp FWD race car, we could trash (trash = cloth/wires showing) a set of Victoracer scuffs (our tire of choice for enduros) in about 3 hours...on the REAR of the car. Now...remember...all the rear tires do in a FWD car is keep the gas tank from scraping on the ground.
09-02-2005, 08:02 PM
#14
Race Director
Originally Posted by DrJupeman
This is a great point. You'll read and be told of a lot of people who get a stupid number of events out of their tires. I have also concluded that they are just not driving hard enough. I can't seem to make even the vaunted MPSC last for me for >10 days. (Granted I drive a car that has had a few too many trips to the all you can eat buffet, if you know what I mean.)
(Granted I drive a car that has had a few too many trips to the all you can eat buffet, if you know what I mean.)10/10ths = the fastest you personaly can drive the car. Any less effort is less than 10/10ths. Any more effort is overdriving and can cause you to lose speed with excessive sliding or simply fly off the track.
Note two guys in saem car turning the same laps may not be working as hard. One guy may be at 10/10ths other may be only at 9/10ths. Driver skill is an ultimate limit.
09-02-2005, 08:11 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Professor Helmüt Tester
Before anyone can answer the question posed, come futher clarification -
The limit of the car, or the limit of the driver ? Two very different things.
The limit of the car, or the limit of the driver ? Two very different things.
My premise is that when you are on the limit of your tires, your car will not feel "stuck down", nor will it "turn-in like a dream" nor will it "corner like it was on rails". It will feel light, and loose, and ready to slide in a heartbeat, and easily upset by bumps, slippery patches etc. You will need to make it turn in, because at the limit on corner entry, there is not much separating turning in from plowing straight ahead. At trackout, you have to manage the grip at the back of the car through countersteering (unwinding the wheel, widening your arc). If not, the G loads will quickly overload the rear tires and you will spin. If you do not have to unwind the wheel until you get to trackout, you went too slow.
So your car should feel "uncomfortable" and "uncooperative" when you are at the limit of your tires, but I used the word "crap" because I thought it would get more people's attention!