Not to sound elitist, but I wonder the basic premise of the discussion, namely that anyone can and should be able to do this competently with sufficient practise, is, in fact, true. Anyone can open the cover on a Steinway, drop a finger on a key and "play the piano". With a tiny bit of work, most can play chopsticks... This, however is only the tinyest hurdle on the road to playing a 12 bar blues, let alone a Chopin etude.

Some people probably should never solo. It doesn't particularly surprise me that this is the case, as many people are attracted to sports cars as a result of image and not as a result of an affinity for driving. Besides, the Universe likes equalibrium. This demands that for every one of those rare individuals who winds up in Black after a handfull of days due to their natural gifts, there are conversely, those who will never be able to master the basic and essential skills necessary, no matter how good the instruction.

 

100% agree.

 

yes, there is that possiblity.... I've also heard people say flat out (this isn't for me) after their 1st DE event... and that is o.k. ...at least they tried and know now that for them, racing is a spectator sport....

 

John, as you know, I am a student, so my comments might not be as helpful to you as the comments of an instructor might, but I can give you the perspective of someone who is coming up through the ranks.

I have been blessed by having several great instructors (I really haven't had a bad one yet), and the best of the best IMHO all share one characteristic: they seem to know exactly what you need to hear at the moment. I think that comes from listening very carefully to what a student is saying or finding the common thread in the student's errors. If you can get into a student's head to think like they are thinking, you will be more likely to give useful advice.

From the e-mail, it seems like traffic bugged your student. When you are worried about something on the track, you are far more likely to make mistakes, including mistakes that you "know" are wrong. Under those circumstances, it may not do much good to explain the physics of the mistake, because misunderstanding of physics did not "cause" the mistake. Instead, the mistake was caused by the fear of being in an accident or lack of comfort in traffic.

Take this weekend at Summit Point for example. I was running Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my 44, which only weighs 2550 with driver, on a cool day in the rain. I could not get my tires up to temp (particularly the rears), and I was really sliding around. To top things off, I was having a problem with braking. My brake bias is probably not adjusted correctly because not nearly enough force was going to the rears, particularly in the rain (I have a brake bias adjustment ****, but I wanted to get used to the car before I started fooling around with that too much). Worry about sliding off the end of the track at turns 1 and 5, as well as the constant corrections I was having to make in the turns (which was very good for me as far as learning car control) was starting to unnerve me a little. If you aren't certain you can stop in 5, you don't take 4 and the chute the way you know you can. In any event, I started reverse braking a little which, of course, only makes matters worse. I know better, and I had not really had this problem before. Nonetheless, the circumstances rattled me and took me out of my game. Matt Marks jumped in the car with me and did a masterful job at saying exactly what I needed to hear. He helped create a mental framework for addressing the braking problem. This gave me a "solution" to think about so I didn't focus on the problem. It worked very well. I was still sliding a little, but I wasn't "worried" about it any more, and I wasn't reverse braking as much. Then, about 3/4 of the way through the session, he says to me "you have great car control skills." I was shocked, because at that moment I really didn't feel like I even had car control skills. He explained that the track was very slick, I wasn't the only car that was having problems in the braking zone, and that I had kept the car under control in several situations where he thought we could easily have spun or gone off the track. Regardless of whether his comment was true or not, it was exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. He understood what was going on in my head. That one comment helped put me back on my game, and I started pushing harder again with more confidence, which of course meant that I started doing all the things I know I need to do anyway. Betty C. and Tony K. were also very good at providing good technical advice while instilling confidence. Confidence in a novice (or even intermediate) driver is key. I think that most drivers are far more likely to make errors if they are doubting themselves or are worried for some reason.

Traffic used to bother me a little, particularly in green group. I used to come up on people too fast, and then nearly have to lift or brake at the apex of turns, neither of which is very comfortable. My early instructors, including Larry Herman, were good at helping me plan ahead and predict that, as I accelerated through the apex, the green student in front of me might be braking at the apex

I also used to make my most mistakes right after I passed someone because I wanted to create distance between us: I didn't want to slow down the guy who just let me by. As a result of this concern, I nearly always made my worst errors in the first turn after passing a good driver (I didn't care so much when I had passed a bad driver). My instructors taught me to ignore the driver behind me (I had, after all, earned the pass), and drive as if he were not there. In fact, some told me to slow down after I passed a good driver, which, ironically, often meant that I drove faster because I did not go too hot into a turn and then have to fight to "collect" the car on the way out.

The point of this long explanation is that it might be helpful to sit down and talk with your "problem" student between run groups. Instead of explaining what is going on to the student, listen to the student and ask what they perceive, what they are concerned about, and what they think they are doing right or wrong. It may be that their perception is completely wrong, and that you would not have ever guessed it because it is so far off. Nonetheless, it is their perception that counts here. If and when you can get to the bottom of what is bugging the student, you might be able to formulate a game plan to ease that concern or address this problem. Then, the student can focus on the game plan rather than on their concern. Under some circumstances, this strategy might be more effective than sitting down with the student and talking about the importance of consistency, proper turn ins and hitting the apex, all of which is correct but may be entirely beside the point under the circumstances.

Just my two cents.

 

Ah grasshopper, you are learning well. Maybe soon the student will be teaching the master.


BTW, excellent advice.

 

John, don't take it personally. Remember, for some students, OSB (other sports beckon) as my mentor likes to say. (luckily he never said that about me -as far as I know!)

 

Not having time to read all the previous posts......

1st teach basic line,
2nd Braking.... Once I have confidence in their braking, I feel much better letting them run. -they also build confidence that they can stop the car. and are more willing to go faster.

I use the skippy peddle pressure method. 10 brake is locked up, 1 is calipers just touching... So I'll say get ready for a 5 brake, NOW 7 peddle, now 9, off brake, turn in, GAS.... GAS, GAS, GAS.... track out, etc.

ALSO, Try asking him to talk you thru the track (turns). even in the pits, this seems to work as they HAVE to visualize the track/turns.

ask questions, What happened back at Turn X, dunno! YOU TURNED IN EARLY, next lap, dont turn in til I say TURN IN.... etc..


Finally, PUNT, switch instructors. -rare, but sometimes they need a different approach.

If I have trouble, I ask if they would like someone else, as I'm not able to get you to understand.

Finally, my style is Vocal, talking most of the time, all the time, 'prepare to brake, brake, harder, turn in', etc...


oh yeah, sometimes I ask to drive their car, or come with me in my car....


ps: Being a smart driver/intr is knowing when you need help. even pro's need help.... (Hey even, Tiger Woods has a coach!)



More comments: in the beggining of day, I say OUR goal is to not get hurt and drive car home in 1 piece.... when things go wrong, I say, YOU CANT GET A WAY WITH THAT HERE... then point out skids and impacts.... do it my way or else.... THiS really sounds like its a seat time issue....

only took me 2 years to know what happend in the last turn (lap)... things just happen too fast. slow him down, get the line, then speed it up.

 

John - Keep the faith. We all run into someone who just doesn't get it from time to time. I also know that it helps to vent - which is the way I interpret your post. You know the answer - reduce the number of variables the student has to deal with (many good suggestions here on ways to do that) and stay patient. The latter is sometimes hard because the only reason most of us teach is the reward we get when the student "gets it". When they don't .. it is frustrating and quite unsatisfying. FWIW, the frustration level is almost always higher with the most experienced and seasoned instructors.

As Nord and others suggested, you need to get the guy comfortable. Could he possibly be as inconsistent on the street? Probably not. The difference is his comfort level - he's in the zone on the street but far from it on track. In my experience, the most common cause of inconsistent turn in, entry speeds etc. is lack of "vision". But you already knew that, so I'll shut up

Regards,

 

I had a student that I needed no mirror with. I could feel the cars comming up behind him just by his driving. No amount of the its you react too would keep him from the "someone is behind me" fixation. I put blue painters tape on his mirrors and turned "mine" so I had to lean some to see behind. When we would come up to a passing zone I would let him know if, when and where to let someone around. Thi slet us have soem time getting the comfort level op and the line in his head.

 

Hi John,

First, I wanted to thank you for the great write-up many people here and PCA regions have been using for WGI. I myself, have read the write-up before my DE this past weekend at WG, but i'm sure will benefit much more from it after doing two days. Your manual was given out at the Green/Yellow group meeting and being a frequenter here I already had it. I kinda felt like I was already "in the know". Thanks for your great contributions.

I also wanted to give my perspectives, since i'm coming from the "other side" as a student (Green group). It was my 2nd ever DE, 1st time at WG. Being new to WG and it being a long track I was completely overwhelmed! I mean there were turns that I thought were other turns and times I thought I needed to brake I didn't need to. Definite information overload. Ironically, this exact topic (What do you do if your student just doesn't get it) came up during a conversation with several instructors at dinner. I believe a big part of one's success at learning (and teaching for that matter) is that there is complete trust in the instructor. If they are telling you not to brake...you must adhere to their commands. For me...as a "driver" I instinctively think I should be braking at a certain point b/c (I don't want to die)...I am coming down a pretty fast downhill and a wall is closing in fast, I need to brake....but your instructor says "don't brake yet...don't brake yet". You really need to let go and completely trust your instructor at this point b/c he knows the track way better than you and the simple fact is this is the only way you are going to get better. To overcome that fear and pass your threshold. Afterall, if your instincts are perfect (which is not), than you don't need an instructor. Naturally, most of us have a hard time defying our instincts when your life, car, and instructor's life is on the line. I think that is probably one of my deterrents, but throught the runs I believe my trust was close to 100%. When you should be on the gas instead of braking, you most likely should be on the gas instead of braking. The other "hump" I have/had to overcome is trusting your equipment (car in this case). Your car is way better than the driver in most cases and you have to trust that it will do whatever/whenever you ask it to do. My main thing was being too easy on the brakes and not really squeezing them. I think I got that from regular driving where I tend not to use too much brake. I learned that in DE, when the instructor says "Brake!"....they mean BRAKE! It's amazing what brakes these cars have! I think I got better at this throughout my runs but it is still a work in progress. I was truly in awe at what these cars are really capable of.

I guess my whole point is that it is extremely important to have complete trust in your instructor and do as they say, your equipment, and yourself. At the end, instructors are volunteers giving back and risking their lives by getting into a fast car with a complete stranger, so do listen to them.

Ok...I hope I made some sense.

 

John,

It must have been exasperating. I could kind of tell by how washed out you looked at the end of the day - and, it was hot. This is also why I didn't ask you to hop into my 968 for a couple of laps on Saturday. I would have enjoyed your instruction. And, after riding with me you probably wouldn't think your student was so bad after all.

Maybe next time?

Richard

P.S.: Saw your gold 951 E class car at WGI this weekend (parked next to me in garage). Really dug how you modified that cage on the driver's side. Beautiful artwork my friend!

R.

 

Yikes! I still do this at times - in fact just yesterday at Laguna Seca I did this several times (idiot!). Once after a fun 5 lap "fun duel" with a car that is about 1.5 seconds a lap slower he let me by on the front straight and I was so determined to pull away that I almost ran off turn 2 after leaving my braking too late. As I waffled through the second part of the corner a gear too high with the guy right on my gearbox I mentally abused myself.

I've found that actually taking to myself outloud (like wait, wait, wait before a turn in) helps focus me as if an instructor was speaking in my ear. I've told students to try this and some have said it has helped others not.

 

I had a similar experience just recently. I was instructing a student for one day. We had three nice runs and he listened to my instructions.

About half way through the last session – he changes. He starts shifting everywhere, except the turns. I point out he is shifting too much. Stops for two turns and starts again, then I notice he is speed is picking up on the straights. I point his out and he slows down. After a few corners he starts again and is now shifting like a man possessed. Downshifts to 2nd in every turn. Then proceeds to up shift to sometimes 5th gear – speed is a bit faster on the straights but he brakes much earlier. He really is short shifting but not going faster. But now as I point this out, he tells me his previous instructor told him to shift as quickly as he can and continues to do it. He is shifting quicker and jamming the shifter into gear harder and harder – I point out he abusing and unsettling the car…. Stops for a few corners and starts it again. Now I tell him to stop shifting, pick a gear and stay in because his line is suffering … this all took place in less than 2 laps and because he wanted to down shift to second he really slowed at each turn. He wasn’t taking the turns faster, just shifting like a mad man between each turn. Then the session was over.

We had a little chat ... at the time I had not figured this guy out. Thinking about in retrospect, I think he liked the torque in second gear and the feeling of shifting and unsettling the car on every shift. It made him feel fast. He didn’t want to learn to drive, but he was going be able to tell his buddies he was fast and shifting all the time….

Just never know. I had prior indication of this or did I miss it? He waited until the end of the day, I must say I was very close to getting worried. If he had been driving faster it would have been a problem. Made my think…

 

Keith Code (motorcycle instructor; Superbike School) has a couple of books that really cover this topic well, Twist of the Wrist I and II. On a motorcycle much of what you need to do is exactly what you do not want to do, and it's similar in cars inasmuch as vehicle dynamics are vehicle dynamics. It's very much a mind game. The survival instinct tells you to brake in the turn when you feel that you're in too hot when what you really need to do is to roll on the throttle to keep the bike stable and lean it over more!

I find PCA DE to have a faster learning process than motorcycle school because I can get instant instruction from an instructor sitting right next to me rather than the lead and follow exercises or after the fact video review one must do on a motorcycle.

 

Sounds like a classic case of driver fatigue. Driver gets tired and everything falls apart. It is really important to manage tiredness and dehydration. No chocolate, no coke or caffein products (NO RED BULL), eat muesli bars, bananas, risotto for lunch, drink light yoghurt drinks like actimel. **** a lot, change out of sweaty clothes. Check the driver for squinting in sunlight and manage that, so the face is relaxed. Screwed up eyes leads to a tensed neck...... yada yada fatigue. Most parents learn to stop their kids doing things just before the child gets too tired, adults are the same.

To help feel fresh, I always have a lot of clean balaclavas so I can put on a fresh one before each session.

R+C