Yes, one would not learn anything if PSM intervenes if the driver overdo even buy a "little", OTOH if it only intervenes in those last moments before the car actually spins where even Gilles Villeneuve cannot do anything, what are we learning in avoiding PSM. But in reality I think the PSM kicks in between these two extremes.

I agree with you with the rest, especially learning extreme car control on the skid pad etc.,,,,,All those can only help.....

 

Hey Guys;

I think the only wise thing to do is embrace PSM as a learning tool right from the outset. As others with advanced PSM experience have attested in previous threads, you CAN learn to drive around it, and in the end probably will find out that you are a smoother driver as a result, and quite quick to boot. Trying to fight it is folly. Use it and learn.

Does that teach the same lesson as doing wild 360+ spins on a wet pad? Nope. Different set of lessons. Ones you can't learn with PSM. The main problem is that this sort of training is highly beneficial, but rarely seen. I myself have ALWAYS wanted to do one, but the opportunity has never presented itself.

Haven't driven a rear drive car in the winter in years. Guess I'll have to ice race instead! Hey... crank up the coilovers a few inches and get the old Fliegende '44 out on the lakes!

 

Great thread and a good debate!

I'm a newbie and guilty of having begun my DE with a high HP car with all the modern driver aids. Have done Porsche Driving school, a car control clinic, a couple of DE's and autocrosses, plenty of goal-specific street driving "seat time"...heel-toe, braking, cornering...and read practically every instructional book on contemporary race driving/DE techniques.

While the driving schools and car control clinic provide a "demo" version of where the car's limits may be, and appropriate responses when such limits may be exceeded...they do not teach, or allow one to build "muscle memory" for saving the more extreme real-life situations one may encounter on the track.

So where does one go to become more proficient, become more skilled, at saving from a vicious slide or spin, or avoid getting hit by the guy who just spun in front of you, etc.,...other than to learn from the-trial-and-error method live on track? Is there any affordable, one-on-one instruction to be had anywhere? Thanks...

 

The same question was posed on a seperate thread not too long ago, and the majority response was seat time. I really don't know whether one can experience enough slides and spins to gain the muscle memory to be truly comfartable with it, i could only hope with enough seat time and the car control needed in driving through corners at the edge and the constant corrections needed to keep it on the edge etc. will give the necessary skills to be competent when the spin actually happens. Other than that one can only attend as many car control clinics as possible.

If you have read Skip Barber's book Going faster : Mastering the art of race driving on the chapter titled Mastering Car Control you see he thinks spining the car is not necessary to learn car control.

The initial question seems to ponder whether having PSM hinder this learning process, and thus make it difficult to recover when the spin actually happens ?...

 

Jeeva...you and I are on the same page, I think. Relative beginners at DE attempting to shorten the learning curve and putting safety ahead of everything else. Especially with the latter I'm trying to find out what other resources are available out there...other than just "seat time" which by definition implies that one is involved in "incidents" from which one hopefully gains experience...that may help us avoid getting into "incidents" in the first place.

To me prevention is far more valuable than an after-the-fact remedy!

 

Yes, prevention is better....my first experience with a car spinning feets away from me happened in my last DE...everyone I spoke to had said it's usually a scary moment, ...Guess what, i did not skip a heart beat....why? simple, I knew he was going to spin ....this happened in the rain in turn 1 at mid ohio, and I was actually telling the instructor how slippery it was and how much I was enjoying the four wheel drifts for the first time . Granted it's easier to anticipate a spin in the rain, I can only hope I'll learn enough to be ready for my next "surprise".

I've had several sessions in rain, and my instructor and I did a survaillance lap in the rain noting EVERYTHING....so it was seat time and the preparation that helped, from the previous thread that seemed to be the consensus...I think we are on the same page as well, I am just discussing my thoughts on it and I think we are in complete agreement here,....I am also eager to hear any other ways of learning as well, now to the experts who actually know a thing a two about this ...

 

Talking to some fellow instructor friends and my very limited experience teaching with the system ON and OFF makes me want to disagree with the above. Yes folks go way faster sooner BUT we have found they can be they can be traveling at WHITE/BLACK run group speeds and doing really wrong stuff. (don’t have a clue how much PSM is saving our lives) I feel this is a recipe for disaster if they ever change cars. I wonder how a light on the dash is feedback? I prefer to take a “safe” place like the left hander at Lime Rock and encourage the student to trail brake more and more or breathe out (more and more) while the car is pushing of the apex and have them CORRECT – PAUSE – RECOVER after the car steps out. I think the muscle memory and heart skipping a beat of over doing something and then a quick proper recovery has to be taught and or experienced. Obviously Autocross is a great trainer for this. I used to love it when I got a Green student and he would say I did 6 autocrosses last year and want to try DE. YA HOO lets go! Especially NER autocrosses as we run on a former SAC base and have some fast 3rd gear sweepers and slaloms.
Bringing a PSM owner to the point where they are a fully qualified advanced driver and then an instructor that can teach in anything is major challenge I sure don’t have the answers for!
(Former NER chief of instructor development)

 

Bill, Thanks for your input,....so, I take it's a good idea to learn with the PSM off from your experience (which is vast, I was just trying to argue the merits from just a technical stand with not much real life experience) But, when people like you with real life experience say that it IS better to learn without, I am actually going to disable my PSM and actually learn properly.....
Thanks
Jeeva

 

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this exact issue, which led me to buy an '84 NA 944 over a used GT3. For me this was a very difficult decision, because I am quite sure that a GT3 would have been a tremendously fun toy.

I think that the "old-timers" may be making a mistake by focusing a little too much attention on the supposed connection between the "lack of car control skill" to the "availability of electronic driving aids." Electronic aids may mask a lack of car control skills (to the outside world), but they do not necessarily lead to a lack of car control skills or "prevent" a driver from learning car control skills, unless the driver is an idiot or a dolt.

Let's take PSM, for example. I am very novice, and I leave it on at all times. I know exactly when it comes on, and I can even predict when it will come on (e.g., when I have come too hot into a corner or when I pinch the car exiting a corner). I get seriously pissed at myself (I tend to over analyzse and am overly self-critical) when it does come on, and I assume that I may have spun without it. Yes, PSM saved my a$$, but do you actually need to go off the track and potentially damage your car in order to learn that you made a mistake? I think not. In short, provided that the driver has sufficient car awareness (e.g., realizes when PSM kicks in -- which is difficult to miss -- and, hopefully, can predict when it is about to kick in) and takes the fact that PSM kicked in seriously, PSM does not generally interfere with the learning process. The same car control skills that good drivers use to come out of spins can and should be employed to prevent PSM from kicking in in the first place.

The only exception to my conclusion regarding PSM occurs when PSM comes on when I seem to be doing everything "right" (as confirmed by my instructors). For example, it flickers a little iin madness at Mid-Ohio, but it did not result in any serious interventions (for those without PSM, it usually jerks the car back in line if it is saving your butt from a bonehead error). It has also flickered a little when I was playing around with TTO, and I could not tell whether I had made a nice turn that slightly exceeded the parameters of PSM, or whether I would have spun without it.

In any event, PSM rarely comes on when the car feels "right," and when PSM does come on, the driver usually knows (or at least should know) why it came on (e.g., the car didn't feel "right" due to driver error). Drivers who do not pay attention to PSM or do not consider the consequences of PSM interventions probably would not be good drivers if they did not have PSM. In other words, the presence of PSM is not the cause for their lack of car control skills. It may be that cars without PSM can be driven more aggressively, but that is an entirely different issue than whether PSM leads to more drivers without car control skills.

I do agree that drivers who learn solely in a PSM car may have a few difficulties when they move to a car without PSM because, if they fail to prevent a spin (which is a skill they should have learned in the car with PSM) they will have little to no experience in learning how to stop or come out of a spin.

I can't see why anybody would complain about ABS. Unless you plan later to drive a car without ABS, then why would it ever matter? If you do plan to drive a car without ABS, then I can see that you would have to learn a different braking skill, but I am not sure how much relationship the "braking without ABS" has to do with the type of "car control" to which I think Larry is referring. In any event, I would bet that the majority of drivers who learn with ABS probably will not subsequently drive cars that do not have ABS.

I think that the real reason you see people without car control skills is that the modern cars are so fast and forgiving (totally apart from the electronic aids, the modern suspensions are amazing and very well balanced) that it is difficult to drive the cars fast enough to be at the edge so that you can learn "car control skills." (check out the SUVs being driven at near triple digit speeds on the beltway on any given day). For me to drive my car at 9/10 or 10/10 on the track, I am flying around the track. I would imagine that it would be a lot easier to hit 9/10 or 10/10 in an older car that has "bad" or, at a minimum, "quirky" handling characteristics that require much more management at far, far lower speeds. It is easier to learn how to save a spin that starts at 30 mph than it is to learn that same skill at 60 mph (or at least it is easier to have the courage to hit those speeds and risk a spin). The same is true with respect to "right foot driving." I imagine it is far easier to learn that skill in an older 911 than in a 996 or 997 with PSM shut off.

In order to learn to be a good driver, I bought an old, low horspower NA 944 (I guess that is a little redundant). I think that it will be easier for me to learn car contol skills in a lower HP car, and then I will be in good stead when I move back up in HP. It proably would have been better for me to have chosen a less neutral chassis (i.e., a 911), but the 944 had too many advantages. I am also taking Larry H's advice by starting to autocross. To be honest, autocross does not really appeal to me at all. I had never viewed it is a means to learn car control skills for the track until Larry mentioned it to me. Now, I plan to use that tool to my advantage. I am also trying to figure out how to take "car control" lessons, because simply doing autocross without any instruction probably will not lead to car control skills very quickly. If you don't know what you can do, or what you are doing wrong, you will just end up making the same mistakes over and over again or just being a slow autocrosser.

I think that the real reason "old timers" think they see more drivers who lack car control skills is due to the speed and great handling characteristics of the modern cars (totally apart from the electronic aids). Not too long ago, drivers without car control skills would have either (1) driven a lot slower or (2) been off the track a lot more. Now, since the cars are so fast and handle so well, drivers without car control skills are able (1) to drive at speeds that, until now, were not acheivable by anyone but drivers with great skills, and (2) to stay on the track despite colossal errors. This reminds me of the grumbling of German Porsche fanatics I used to know when I lived in Germany. They bemoaned the introduction of PSM because they said that, before PSM, only good drivers drove Porsches. Bad drivers would go out and buy a 930, wreck it within a month, and be so scared that they would never buy another Porsche, which kept the marque for "purists" who knew how to drive well. Now the Porsches handle so well that any idiot can own one without too much fear of the guardrails. Thank God for PSM, because I am one idiot who loves my Porsche and hopes one day to drive well enough to deserve it.

 

I'll chime in my 2 cents as PSM was a hot topic in our region too...
I agree with Bill that the main concern is that many new drivers are too dependent on PSM to save their bacon, and worst yet, they don't even know that - a flashing light really is not too good an indicator when you are going 100mph.
In the last few years, we have noticed that the green run group speed is gotten to a point where its actually scary. As most said before, its much easier to learn the skill at lower speed. With the newer cars, it is "easy" to go fast, and fast to most means that "I must be good"...
So, to me, PSM is a great tool (as Hurley Hayward proved that unless you are on R-compound, it should not intrude your driving cos otherwise, you have made a mistake). But, its how to teach someone to be patient about learning the skill as opposed to relying on the car alone to carry those speeds.

 

Some random thoughts:

In racing, you push the car to the edge regardless of what that edge is (ABS, PSM, whatever) and the person who can find that edge and hold it wins.... and that requires driving skill.

Electronic aids are great for street, and I want everyone I can get... but in racing I believe they cloud the issue... i do believe they dilute the driving skills... but in the end the best drivers will win with or without...

In DE, the newer cars are so capable that when a student DOES find the limit, they are going so fast that bad things can happen (the "boxster effect")... I learned to drive on a '70 911S with 205 tires front and rear... how anybody can learn to push a 3.6 Turbo to the limit... wow... they have my respect.

A/X is a good start to learn some basics of control at (and over) the limit, but IMHO requires a different driving skill from track driving... at some point most drivers need to focus on one or the other.

I always wonder about being totally reliant on ABS and then a fuse blows going down the main straight..... Hmmmmm

 

I have not been around this sport long enough to know if the driver skill levels are changing.

Speeds are increasing however as technology increases.

I can say that I learned at least 80% of my car control skills in an autocross enviroment. I have a friend who was really in track days and autocross. He was usally top time of day at our autocross events. Drove with back end out all the time. Was a hoot to watch and fast. One day he told me about how he was starting to drive at the track like he did at autocross. It scared him a bit.

Well what I took from that quite simply was autocross was the place to let it all hang out. Drive stink and try things. Try things like braking hard in a corner to get the car to rotate. If you starting to spin. Step on it and try to powerslide out. Attempt to drift the car around a 180 corner. Trail brake like crazy. The reason is that you can learn these skills in safe enviornment and drive like a mad man and greatest casuality may be some dead cones.

Well I tried all of these techniques at the autocross first. I learned to feel my 944 sliding around and I learned to control slides.

Then one day at the big track I came in too hot in to corner the back end started to slide. So I applied power and drifted the car at 45 deg to the line all the way around the corner. Whoo hoo. It was fun and I did it in a controlled fashion. Not super fast, but I did not spin and maintained 95% of my speed. That skill was learned at autocross.

Over time I learned to be fast on the track you need to drive the 944 like a proverbial mad-man, but with out the car control reaction skills to back it up you can wreck the car.

I still advise all 944-spec drivers to spend time at autocross to hone their car control skills. Unfortunantly most guys scoff at autocross after spend time at the big track. Too bad really as going into corner at 85 mph with 3 cars on your tail is not really the best place to learn what it feels like to slide/drift the car.

PS... with reguards to skill level in PCA vs SCCA/NASA.
I have seen plenty of cup car guys who have money for the car, but not the skill to drive it. I have driven against these guys. There are a few of those who have skills to really get alot from there cars, but don't discount the drivers in "slower" cars. Be them in PCA racing or SCCA or NASA. Just because someone is racing in a 100 hp honda or 150 hp 944 does NOT mean they have no skills. There are driver in those cars that will smoke the average Cup car driver, but they just don't have the money or desire to run cup car.

The speed of the car you race really has little bearing on how fast of a driver or what your skill level is. The speed of your car really is just a measure of your bank roll

 

I think that A/X (or maybe carting) is the best place to learn car control. Yes it is a different skill from driving on the track, but many of the elements of balance, smoothness and car control are exactly the same. The same little flicks of the wheel and stabs on the gas that you use to stifle a potential spin at 30 mph work at 100 mph too (don't ask me how I know this, but trust me, I do ). I think that you can develop the feel of the car on the track, but I still don't see how you can learn all the little tricks to help stay in control without some sort of low speed car control training.

 

Good to mention karting, Larry. Were there a track in the Phila area I'd probably be doing that instead of DEs with PCA!

There is a lot of similarity in how many different vehicles handle at a rnage of speeds. It's not the same, but it is similar. For building experience at the edge, autocross is great, but for DEs I agree with TD in DC when he writes: "do you actually need to go off the track and potentially damage your car in order to learn that you made a mistake? I think not." I expect at some point to slide more than I have done on the track, but I never plan to spin or go off track....

 

If a driver is going 100 mph and makes the type of error that requires PSM to save their bacon, they WILL know that PSM just saved their bacon. In addition to a flashing dash light, the PSM will jerk the car back on line. The car will physically move due to the application of brakes and/or cutting of gas. If the driver fails to appreciate what just happened, they have bigger issues that must be addressed . . .