Why hand signals for passing on DE's and not the blinkers.
06-11-2005, 08:26 PM
#16
Race Car
I don't know of any safety equipment, short of a full race setup, that would have prevented Ben's death. A cage, a full harness, and a neck restraint would be high on the list of things he'd have needed. A window net is just not relevant to his situation.
With regard to glass-versus-net, I don't want to be looking for the window crank if I'm inside a car that's on fire. Worse still, I don't want to be feeling around for the window's electric switch aftet the kill switch has been pulled by me or a corner worker.
In a rollover, glass side windows can disintegrate on the first roll.
With regard to glass-versus-net, I don't want to be looking for the window crank if I'm inside a car that's on fire. Worse still, I don't want to be feeling around for the window's electric switch aftet the kill switch has been pulled by me or a corner worker.
In a rollover, glass side windows can disintegrate on the first roll.
06-12-2005, 03:02 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
OK, a lot of 'aren't window nets wonderful'. Everything you are talking about are what windows are for - and they do a better job, and don't destroy the aerodynamics. Plastic windows do not keep track side workers out when they need to get in.
And as far as Ben's accident is concerned, how, exactly, would a window net, as opposed to a closed window made a difference?
HANS devices were not required in all FIA race classes until the bugs had been worked out in F1 and by the original inventors. A cynic might suggest that club racers and DE attendees were early adopters because so many of them are gear heads, a bit like the guy on the GT3 forum who has done 200 miles in his car and wants to but strut tower braces in.
R+C
And as far as Ben's accident is concerned, how, exactly, would a window net, as opposed to a closed window made a difference?
HANS devices were not required in all FIA race classes until the bugs had been worked out in F1 and by the original inventors. A cynic might suggest that club racers and DE attendees were early adopters because so many of them are gear heads, a bit like the guy on the GT3 forum who has done 200 miles in his car and wants to but strut tower braces in.
R+C
You also missed my point about Ben's accident. I was refering to safety in general, for me every little thing count. Safety is a system or proper components working together to protect the driver. Window nets or plastic windows is a component. Like Jack said there are other things that have priority, but lets theorize and say that if Ben had a cage, a roof, proper restraining etc. Without window nets. If and that is a huge if that I suspect we will never know, the rest of the safety equipment had prevented their death, the addition of window nets I would suspect would have added the final piece of protection. Alone for sure they only worth a piece of added safety. A plastic window probably would have had the same effect as the window net. Not sure how it would react on deforming, popping out etc. Not an expert on this issue. I know cup cars come with plastic windows, so if Porsche puts them in that is good enough for me.
I used to run my cabrio with a roll bar and 6 point harness at DE's. Would I do it again? Not in a million years! With a roll cage yes, with a roll bar no. I'm I going overboard on safety? I think my accident experience has afforded me to do so. I used to think also abit lightly on going overboard on safety. That is until my experience and unfortunately with humans this is usually the case. They need to experience it to understand it... Lucky people like me have walked a way, others have paid a dear price in the hospital or worse. I'm not preaching safety I'm just putting out my lessons learned from my unfortunate experience.
06-12-2005, 04:28 AM
#19
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Danny
Yes, I DO know about race crashes.
A window net compromises peripheral vision and is another thing to get tangled in. Doesn't it strike you as 'odd' that you don't see a lot of window nets at Le Mans, or in DTM, or FIA-GT, or WTCC or a host of other series? Have you not noticed that a lot of the sharp pieces of carbon fibre that fly around after an incident could go straight through the spaces in the large denier window net?
Historically I can see where window nets come from. Track workers know how to break windows in this day and age. I'm not sure what your head and helmet are doing anywhere near the window? Are you another one of those guys who thinks their belts are tight enough when there is still another inch and a half to come in all round?
Porsche factory concentrates extremely clearly on what is relevant to safety and making their cars go fast. You do not see their Cup cars or Le Mans or FIA GT cars running with safety nets unless local regulations (read mostly North America) dictate otherwise. Similarly, arm restraints......
Seriously, I can understand people enjoying doing things with their DE or race car, and some things are more affordable than others and even so have to justify their place in the budget, so the safety card might be played with a little more emphasis than it deserves. Perhaps the money saved by rescinding rules relating to nets might be spent on full face helmets, which are a good idea in a crash. Even in a closed car, a lot of 'stuff' flies around when everything goes pearshape!
R+C
Yes, I DO know about race crashes.
A window net compromises peripheral vision and is another thing to get tangled in. Doesn't it strike you as 'odd' that you don't see a lot of window nets at Le Mans, or in DTM, or FIA-GT, or WTCC or a host of other series? Have you not noticed that a lot of the sharp pieces of carbon fibre that fly around after an incident could go straight through the spaces in the large denier window net?
Historically I can see where window nets come from. Track workers know how to break windows in this day and age. I'm not sure what your head and helmet are doing anywhere near the window? Are you another one of those guys who thinks their belts are tight enough when there is still another inch and a half to come in all round?
Porsche factory concentrates extremely clearly on what is relevant to safety and making their cars go fast. You do not see their Cup cars or Le Mans or FIA GT cars running with safety nets unless local regulations (read mostly North America) dictate otherwise. Similarly, arm restraints......
Seriously, I can understand people enjoying doing things with their DE or race car, and some things are more affordable than others and even so have to justify their place in the budget, so the safety card might be played with a little more emphasis than it deserves. Perhaps the money saved by rescinding rules relating to nets might be spent on full face helmets, which are a good idea in a crash. Even in a closed car, a lot of 'stuff' flies around when everything goes pearshape!
R+C
06-12-2005, 06:03 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
Danny
Yes, I DO know about race crashes.
I'm not sure what your head and helmet are doing anywhere near the window? Are you another one of those guys who thinks their belts are tight enough when there is still another inch and a half to come in all round?
R+C
Yes, I DO know about race crashes.
I'm not sure what your head and helmet are doing anywhere near the window? Are you another one of those guys who thinks their belts are tight enough when there is still another inch and a half to come in all round?
R+C
Please dont question me if I know how to tight my belts. How is "i cant take a deep breath" for you? Despite this you "should" know that the belts always need even more tightening during the race especially if its a long one. So yes, my belts worked and kept me firmly in the seat. My head and arms were a different story.
Last edited by DJF1; 06-12-2005 at 06:19 AM.
06-12-2005, 11:47 AM
#21
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For the record;
In an "average" 30-35g impact, it is documented that the hips will project toward the direction of the impact approximately 4-5", and the upper torso will do the same to the tune of 16-18". This is with harnesses tightened EXTERNALLY, meaning by a technician, as in MUCH tighter than you could ever do by yourself when seated. Your head is on the end of a very flexible tether, and can "weigh" in excess of 700lbs in the above scenario. How far do you think it might project?
There is so much in-car and crash test footage available that ignorance of these realities is almost inexcusable in this day and age.
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There can be no argument that window nets are a proven safety device. They most certainly are. They are not perfect - like anything else - but they provide a vital service in certain circumstances. If a short guy like Danny
can ring his bell on the chassis, imagine me at 6'5"/235?
Whether you buy into their use or not is another matter entirely, and is your choice to make. To argue that this or that sanctioning body or race series does not believe in them is utter folly. When sanctioning bodies prove that they are not to some extent governed by "CYA" when it comes to EVERYTHING - safety included - then I will trust them... to a point. I trust MYSELF more.
In an "average" 30-35g impact, it is documented that the hips will project toward the direction of the impact approximately 4-5", and the upper torso will do the same to the tune of 16-18". This is with harnesses tightened EXTERNALLY, meaning by a technician, as in MUCH tighter than you could ever do by yourself when seated. Your head is on the end of a very flexible tether, and can "weigh" in excess of 700lbs in the above scenario. How far do you think it might project?
There is so much in-car and crash test footage available that ignorance of these realities is almost inexcusable in this day and age.
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There can be no argument that window nets are a proven safety device. They most certainly are. They are not perfect - like anything else - but they provide a vital service in certain circumstances. If a short guy like Danny
can ring his bell on the chassis, imagine me at 6'5"/235?Whether you buy into their use or not is another matter entirely, and is your choice to make. To argue that this or that sanctioning body or race series does not believe in them is utter folly. When sanctioning bodies prove that they are not to some extent governed by "CYA" when it comes to EVERYTHING - safety included - then I will trust them... to a point. I trust MYSELF more.
06-12-2005, 12:14 PM
#22
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Nordschliefe, said:
"Seriously, I can understand people enjoying doing things with their DE or race car, and some things are more affordable than others and even so have to justify their place in the budget, so the safety card might be played with a little more emphasis than it deserves."
All I can say is I am glad I don't have to run in to you in any of the tracks near me, my friend from far, far away
"Seriously, I can understand people enjoying doing things with their DE or race car, and some things are more affordable than others and even so have to justify their place in the budget, so the safety card might be played with a little more emphasis than it deserves."
All I can say is I am glad I don't have to run in to you in any of the tracks near me, my friend from far, far away
06-12-2005, 02:59 PM
#23
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Jeeva
You entirely misunderstand me. My point is not that safety is not of importance, it is of the greatest importance. Some features offer fewer safety benefits than they seem to at first sight and that often people will emphqasise the safety aspects as a justification for spending the money.
Safety nets have been in use for a long time, does it not strike as odd that there use has not been generally adopted everywhere, unlike the HANS which is becoming more and more frequently adopted around the world, despite its less than outstanding user friendliness?
I'll atttribute your final crack to a rush of blood to the head.
R+C
R+C
You entirely misunderstand me. My point is not that safety is not of importance, it is of the greatest importance. Some features offer fewer safety benefits than they seem to at first sight and that often people will emphqasise the safety aspects as a justification for spending the money.
Safety nets have been in use for a long time, does it not strike as odd that there use has not been generally adopted everywhere, unlike the HANS which is becoming more and more frequently adopted around the world, despite its less than outstanding user friendliness?
I'll atttribute your final crack to a rush of blood to the head.
R+C
R+C
06-12-2005, 05:39 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
Jeeva
You entirely misunderstand me. My point is not that safety is not of importance, it is of the greatest importance. Some features offer fewer safety benefits than they seem to at first sight and that often people will emphqasise the safety aspects as a justification for spending the money.
Safety nets have been in use for a long time, does it not strike as odd that there use has not been generally adopted everywhere, unlike the HANS which is becoming more and more frequently adopted around the world, despite its less than outstanding user friendliness?
I'll atttribute your final crack to a rush of blood to the head.
R+C
R+C
You entirely misunderstand me. My point is not that safety is not of importance, it is of the greatest importance. Some features offer fewer safety benefits than they seem to at first sight and that often people will emphqasise the safety aspects as a justification for spending the money.
Safety nets have been in use for a long time, does it not strike as odd that there use has not been generally adopted everywhere, unlike the HANS which is becoming more and more frequently adopted around the world, despite its less than outstanding user friendliness?
I'll atttribute your final crack to a rush of blood to the head.
R+C
R+C
06-12-2005, 07:42 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Guess I'll jump in with both feet and hope I don't stuff them in my mouth, again.
We are talking about DE, right? An activity where regular guys can learn how to drive their regular (alright, maybe not so regular) cars. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the the racing licensed and experienced driver driving an all out safety equiped race car. If DE required everyone to have the full safety equiped race car, DE will lose probably upwards of 80% of it's attendees. OTOH, the modern car with the factory installed and designed safety features will probably be adequate for upwards of 90% of DE activities. It's the occasional bolt of lightning that strikes out of nowhere that it fails. All out racing is different. Here you can expect to spin, get bumped or hit a wall. Street car safety design will be inadequate almost 100% of all racing activities.
In this regard, I agree with Nordschleife. Safety equipment in DE is a compromise between what is practical and going all out. I'm not saying that nets, kill switches, roll cage, etc don't increase safety. I'm saying you don't need that level of safety in DE. If you get hit by that bolt of lightning, it's bad luck and no safety equipment will help. If you think you need that level of safety, then you need to quit DE and go into racing. It's probably safer for us DE guys that way, anyway.
If you don't hear from me again, it's because I just stuffed both my feet in my molars.
We are talking about DE, right? An activity where regular guys can learn how to drive their regular (alright, maybe not so regular) cars. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the the racing licensed and experienced driver driving an all out safety equiped race car. If DE required everyone to have the full safety equiped race car, DE will lose probably upwards of 80% of it's attendees. OTOH, the modern car with the factory installed and designed safety features will probably be adequate for upwards of 90% of DE activities. It's the occasional bolt of lightning that strikes out of nowhere that it fails. All out racing is different. Here you can expect to spin, get bumped or hit a wall. Street car safety design will be inadequate almost 100% of all racing activities.
In this regard, I agree with Nordschleife. Safety equipment in DE is a compromise between what is practical and going all out. I'm not saying that nets, kill switches, roll cage, etc don't increase safety. I'm saying you don't need that level of safety in DE. If you get hit by that bolt of lightning, it's bad luck and no safety equipment will help. If you think you need that level of safety, then you need to quit DE and go into racing. It's probably safer for us DE guys that way, anyway.
If you don't hear from me again, it's because I just stuffed both my feet in my molars.
06-12-2005, 08:09 PM
#26
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This from a guy wearing an open face helmet. Figures... 
I can't say I disagree with you. Safety equipment DOES compromise a car for general use. Each person has to make their own decisions based on their own needs. Whether they have any awareness of the risks, or can get good information, or know it when they get it, are quite different points.
Oh, and... the driver - particularly the novice - is usually the one with the lightening button in his hand, whether he knows it or not!
I can't say I disagree with you. Safety equipment DOES compromise a car for general use. Each person has to make their own decisions based on their own needs. Whether they have any awareness of the risks, or can get good information, or know it when they get it, are quite different points.
Oh, and... the driver - particularly the novice - is usually the one with the lightening button in his hand, whether he knows it or not!
06-12-2005, 08:24 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Ya got me!!!
Dunno if this makes or breaks my case, but it's enlightening. Here's an F1 driver Pizzonia driving a street car, a Jag.Flip the Jag!!
Dunno if this makes or breaks my case, but it's enlightening. Here's an F1 driver Pizzonia driving a street car, a Jag.Flip the Jag!!
06-12-2005, 10:26 PM
#28
Race Car
Acceptable use of Blinkers
Are........At Night, and in the Rain.
BUT,
It Has to be clarified that the signal is a point for the faster car. In the drivers meeting, and written somewhere on the entry... before the event!
the other thing is, you'd have to start teching for turn signals... uggggh!
woops they dont work, cant run? hmmmm?
[I do think it nuts we signal 'pass on right' by sticking my hand out the window, and over the roof of the car.....
-Any other time its absolutly not allowed to extend a body part out the window.
ie. you cant rest arm on door sil. -passenger keep hands in vehicle! ]
But, Hand signs are much better imho.
Less parts to break.... eh?
BUT,
It Has to be clarified that the signal is a point for the faster car. In the drivers meeting, and written somewhere on the entry... before the event!
the other thing is, you'd have to start teching for turn signals... uggggh!
woops they dont work, cant run? hmmmm?
[I do think it nuts we signal 'pass on right' by sticking my hand out the window, and over the roof of the car.....
-Any other time its absolutly not allowed to extend a body part out the window.
ie. you cant rest arm on door sil. -passenger keep hands in vehicle! ]
But, Hand signs are much better imho.
Less parts to break.... eh?
06-12-2005, 10:55 PM
#29
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Palting, you are only correct to the extent that DE's don't make use of the safety equipment as often as in a full race. This is exactly why one has to be extra cognizant of safety for DE's, because safety is easily explained for races as you see accidents all the time, OTOH accidents are so rare in DE's one could esaily brush it off as nothing too major. It really does'nt matter whether it's a race or a DE that the accident happens, whether it be an oil slick that catapult you into a concrete wall or car that cut you off. But, when that car hits the concrete wall, it does'nt know whether you are in a race or you were just having some fun.
But, I do agree that speeds achieved for DE's is nothing close to say in F1 race and therefore safety equipment can also vary...I for one am not planning to install safety nets on my street car, but i certainly think Helmets and possibly harness and thus H&N restraints can be a prudent safety choice even for DE's. No one is arguing for making all of this mandatory for DE's. But for anyone using nets, it's one of the reasons why they may want to use blinkers instead of hand signals...surely it's not that lame not to be one of the merits of blinkers over hand signals, which is the context of this dicussion.
If there can never be a chance of hitting a concrete wall at speeds or any other mishaps at a DE event, then it's lame to carry all this extra weight, But, I don't see anyone making that argument especially after the recent tragedy.
But, I do agree that speeds achieved for DE's is nothing close to say in F1 race and therefore safety equipment can also vary...I for one am not planning to install safety nets on my street car
, but i certainly think Helmets and possibly harness and thus H&N restraints can be a prudent safety choice even for DE's. No one is arguing for making all of this mandatory for DE's. But for anyone using nets, it's one of the reasons why they may want to use blinkers instead of hand signals...surely it's not that lame not to be one of the merits of blinkers over hand signals, which is the context of this dicussion.If there can never be a chance of hitting a concrete wall at speeds or any other mishaps at a DE event, then it's lame to carry all this extra weight, But, I don't see anyone making that argument especially after the recent tragedy.
06-12-2005, 11:03 PM
#30
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Hmmm...
There are at least a couple of participants on this board that have had some NASTY DE shunts. It doesn't happen often, but as Jeeva points out, it can happen just as bad!
There are at least a couple of participants on this board that have had some NASTY DE shunts. It doesn't happen often, but as Jeeva points out, it can happen just as bad!