View Poll Results: Which style produces a faster lap?
Super smooth driving
43
46.24%
Driving with controlled aggression
41
44.09%
Depends on the type of tire - DOT or Slick
9
9.68%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll
Which is faster - super smooth or controlled aggression?
#31
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Originally Posted by RJay
Which brings me to another couple of questions. How much do you steer after initial turn-in? And how much of that correction steering is with the throttle rather than the wheel?
A) Steer
B) Apply or reduce throttle
C) Both
#32
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To widen your line after turn-in, just unwind the wheel a little more.
To tighten your line after turn-in, pray!
Actually, I find that a really quick burp or 2 (off-on) of the throttle will keep the car rotating and will help tighten your line if your initial turn-in was not sufficient. I do not advocate driving corners that way in general, just if you have to make a correction.
To tighten your line after turn-in, pray!
Actually, I find that a really quick burp or 2 (off-on) of the throttle will keep the car rotating and will help tighten your line if your initial turn-in was not sufficient. I do not advocate driving corners that way in general, just if you have to make a correction.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#33
Race Director
Originally Posted by RJay
I guess I should have been a bit more specific. I was thinking more midcorner in higher speed sections. I was recalling the Eddie Irvine comment in the Schumi video awhile back where he briefly mentions Senna and how he was a master at rapidly modulating the throttle. So, for example, during the period between turn-in+off brake and full throttle, if you wanted to tighten or widen your line, would you:
A) Steer
B) Apply or reduce throttle
C) Both
A) Steer
B) Apply or reduce throttle
C) Both
Throttle first, then steer if needed.
#34
Personally, my style can best be described as a combination of smoothness and sedation
[img] http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gt...ay05_de_07.jpg [img/]
Lee in D.C.
[img] http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gt...ay05_de_07.jpg [img/]
Lee in D.C.
#36
Burning Brakes
You will never be truly fast until you learn to steer with your feet. Unfortunately, in-car video does a lousy job of showing that.
If you stay within your 'comfort zone' anywhere during a qualifying lap, you aren't going fast enough.
If you stay within your 'comfort zone' anywhere during a qualifying lap, you aren't going fast enough.
#37
Prof Tester said--
You will never be truly fast until you learn to steer with your feet. Unfortunately, in-car video does a lousy job of showing that.
If you stay within your 'comfort zone' anywhere during a qualifying lap, you aren't going fast enough.
This is 100% right. The combination of foot steering and steering wheel steering means that the steering wheel is going to move a great deal.
IMHO, Cory F looks a little too relaxed during that qualifying lap at Cal Spdway. Of course, I don't know the particulars of driving on those GAC Hoosier slicks.
I would expect to see a lot more steering wheel movement and more hacking on the throttle. I was really surprised not to hear a throttle application at the end of the 5th gear chicane. There is time for a quick blast there.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
You will never be truly fast until you learn to steer with your feet. Unfortunately, in-car video does a lousy job of showing that.
If you stay within your 'comfort zone' anywhere during a qualifying lap, you aren't going fast enough.
This is 100% right. The combination of foot steering and steering wheel steering means that the steering wheel is going to move a great deal.
IMHO, Cory F looks a little too relaxed during that qualifying lap at Cal Spdway. Of course, I don't know the particulars of driving on those GAC Hoosier slicks.
I would expect to see a lot more steering wheel movement and more hacking on the throttle. I was really surprised not to hear a throttle application at the end of the 5th gear chicane. There is time for a quick blast there.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
#38
There is an optimum slip angle on the tires. If you are below that, you are not cornering at max speed... if you are beyond that, you are just scrubbing speed. Getting to that sweet spot to me seems to be a proper balance of momentum, line, and steering angle.
You can kind of feel it in your wrists when the steering seems to lighten up.... I call it it "getting up on its toes".... and yes on those rare occassions when I can find that balance, I really need to kick my effort level up a notch or two.... it isn;t easy.
But that is totally different from throwing the car all over the place and over-driving.... busting the tires loose and getting all crossed up.... that is not the fastest way.
You can kind of feel it in your wrists when the steering seems to lighten up.... I call it it "getting up on its toes".... and yes on those rare occassions when I can find that balance, I really need to kick my effort level up a notch or two.... it isn;t easy.
But that is totally different from throwing the car all over the place and over-driving.... busting the tires loose and getting all crossed up.... that is not the fastest way.
#39
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Originally Posted by JCP911S
But that is totally different from throwing the car all over the place and over-driving.... busting the tires loose and getting all crossed up.... that is not the fastest way.
I'm pretty certain that if you don't get the car to squirm, you don't really know how much is left in the tires. You could be "leaving something on the table" and that would be that elusive second or so that we are all looking for.
#40
Race Director
Originally Posted by Larry Herman
It was how you feel it is fastest, super smooth at the limit of the slip angle of tires, or a little stronger than that, with the car squirming around.
BTW... I think 90% of folks agree on what is fastest, but that feeling is quite hard to describe and there is were the debate comes in.
#41
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While I think most folks will agree that being super smooth is especially important if you drive a low hp, momentum car, I'd suggest it's critical at all levels of auto racing. Take for example Indy qualifying from two weeks ago. Danica Patrick lost the pole when she got squirmy on her first qualifying lap. Her next two trips were super smooth and faster. Had she put down three super smooth qualifying laps, she would've made racing history.
#42
Rennlist Member
i think there is a big difference of the style and smoothness of a 200+mph indy car on a track with "no" turns vs road racing. check out incar data from Schumacher on a road course and you will be surprised of the steering input (or stuck or any other top drivers. ) to be on the edge is to be fast. controlled agression as was said.
MK
MK
Originally Posted by joey bagadonuts
While I think most folks will agree that being super smooth is especially important if you drive a low hp, momentum car, I'd suggest it's critical at all levels of auto racing. Take for example Indy qualifying from two weeks ago. Danica Patrick lost the pole when she got squirmy on her first qualifying lap. Her next two trips were super smooth and faster. Had she put down three super smooth qualifying laps, she would've made racing history.
#43
Rennlist Member
The post from Larry in the thread about David Murray trailbraking at WG reminded me of this thread.
Ivan Arzola who is considered aggressive (he has driven my car and I can attest to that) had Randy Pobst take his GT3 out at VIR at the Rolex race and he said Randy was much more aggressive with the car than he is. He started the slide at corner entry (rotation). I have also heard a second hand story about Wolf Henzler driving like this (I guess all the pros do). Apparently the guy that Wolf took out drove a GT3 Cup and he almost puked after three laps.
Randy writes hear to slow down to go faster, yet likes oversteer on entry, so everything is relative I guess: http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?..._sql=Position:
When I was at Mid-Ohio a few weeks ago for the first time I was sliding all over the place (RA-1s), and was often correcting. This is a quote from Redline Man earlier in this thread, “I don't know if there is any way to drive a track like Mid Ohio and not be assertive. Driving quickly there is an intense study in managing slip angles constantly. I'm not sure it is possible to be quick and buttery smooth there.”
Here is a video from a session where I had too much speed going into T1. I trailbraked, but felt at the time that lifting was the answer and it worked out ok, although common sense said I should have immediately gone to the gas. http://members.rennlist.com/forklift/Mid-O%2006.wmv Also, my inputs are slightly exaggerated due to the super slow RSA rack (or at least more than what they would be with a “regular” rack).
Interesting discussion here and I guess it is all relative. Randy says to slow down to speed up, yet likes oversteer on entry and Ivan says he is very aggressive. I hope I can ride with a pro someday to see this. The onboards really don’t show it, or at least I can’t see it.
Ivan Arzola who is considered aggressive (he has driven my car and I can attest to that) had Randy Pobst take his GT3 out at VIR at the Rolex race and he said Randy was much more aggressive with the car than he is. He started the slide at corner entry (rotation). I have also heard a second hand story about Wolf Henzler driving like this (I guess all the pros do). Apparently the guy that Wolf took out drove a GT3 Cup and he almost puked after three laps.
Randy writes hear to slow down to go faster, yet likes oversteer on entry, so everything is relative I guess: http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?..._sql=Position:
When I was at Mid-Ohio a few weeks ago for the first time I was sliding all over the place (RA-1s), and was often correcting. This is a quote from Redline Man earlier in this thread, “I don't know if there is any way to drive a track like Mid Ohio and not be assertive. Driving quickly there is an intense study in managing slip angles constantly. I'm not sure it is possible to be quick and buttery smooth there.”
Here is a video from a session where I had too much speed going into T1. I trailbraked, but felt at the time that lifting was the answer and it worked out ok, although common sense said I should have immediately gone to the gas. http://members.rennlist.com/forklift/Mid-O%2006.wmv Also, my inputs are slightly exaggerated due to the super slow RSA rack (or at least more than what they would be with a “regular” rack).
Interesting discussion here and I guess it is all relative. Randy says to slow down to speed up, yet likes oversteer on entry and Ivan says he is very aggressive. I hope I can ride with a pro someday to see this. The onboards really don’t show it, or at least I can’t see it.
#45
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by forklift
Ivan Arzola who is considered aggressive (he has driven my car and I can attest to that) had Randy Pobst take his GT3 out at VIR at the Rolex race and he said Randy was much more aggressive with the car than he is. Randy writes hear to slow down to go faster, yet likes oversteer on entry, so everything is relative I guess: http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?..._sql=Position:
i vote smooth.