mark kibort

more there than anywhere. try going real smooth around the carocel at RA, and you will find someone agressive, passing you on the outside!!

Limerock, never been, but guys i run with in the club stuff, now running World challenge there, show me their video and they are pretty active every turn!!
keep in mind, those are 250-275hp BMWs at 2800lbs on 235x40x17 DOT toyo tires running 0:58. (road america 2:27s!!!!!)

when we talk about smooth or aggressive, we are talking about on the edge. Its not smooth by any stretch. think of it analogus to a guy walking a balance beam. arms are waving up and down (hands on the wheel), but the body is pretty still( car movements on the track) .
MK

RJay

Perhaps one man's agressive is another man's smooth. In my case, maybe I'm a chickensh!t, but while its pretty easy for me to be agressive in the sub 70 MPH stuff, being agressive in 100+mph corners bumps up against my self preservation ethic. OTOH, I'm sure thats what separates the men from the boys. In thinking about VIR, for example, I'm very agressive in the Oak Tree turn, but certainly more smoothly tippy-toeing through the esses. I watched a lot of video before I went to that track. I recall there was a helluva lot of aggression on display by guys like Said and Auberlien the esses. Thats why they're pros and I aint I guess.

Premier Motorsp

I hate to admit it, but I always go fastest when I am pissed off, or have some other motivating factor, such as Wolf Henzler trying to pass me.

I know that I am not smooth in the cockpit. My hands are always moving and I hack at the throttle and brakes if I feel I need to. Hopefully all those control inputs result in the car following smooth arcs without unncessary weight transfer.

I think some people use smoothness as an excuse to go slow.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

mark kibort

I bet you are even more active in your newer cup car, with even stickier tires compared to your older but still pretty fast, C car!!

ive see you at laguna out of turn 9 in your 993. your sawing just like me out of it!!

on the edge = fast
smooth and controlled = fast in your mind

MK

Premier Motorsp

Actually I feel less spastic in the Cup car. I don't think I can drive the Cup car as close to the limit as I can drive the C car. Plus the slicks tend to cover up some of the small errors.

BTW, those Michelin slicks are flat-out incredible. Changing to them from Yokes was like getting in a different car.

One other thing to consider is that when you don't have a lot of steering wheel motion, it can mean the car understeers too much.

Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports

M758

The car follows smooth trajectory with little unnecessary weight transfer that is the key and way I call it smooth. This is compared to having the car flying around the the corners. If some want to call that controlled agression fine, but
I consider it smoothness at the limit. You are working the car for all you can, but the car is not flooping around. If you are "over driving" the car it IS flooping around all over the place. In alot of cases it "feel" faster, but is not.

I do agree with Chris that alot of people use smoothness as an excuse to for going slow. On the flip side I have also seen folks who use "controlled" agression as an excuse to ragged on the track. There is fine line to how much you can push. If I push too hard my car goes from a nice controlled slides to something approaching drifiting. Well drifting is slow. In the car I usally need to calm down think about being a bit smoother. That usally results in me sliding it only as much as needed and not too much.

Larry Herman

I find that when I am going as fast as I can, my braking and turn-in are still smooth, and the car is sliding and rotating (more in slower turns, less in faster turns). It is usually starting before the apex where it gets interesting. I am leaning on the tires so hard that any bump or undulation in the track requires immediate correction. If I don't unwind the wheel as I track out, the car will start to power oversteer. If I unwind it a little too much, I will run out of track. And I usually find myself working to stay on the line I want. The car just does not flow there easily. That is what I feel is driving with controlled aggression. If I were to back it down a tad, it would be easy, and there would be no hystronics. So for me, it feels that if I were to try and be ultra-smooth, I would be slower.

Capt. Carrera

The terms "aggressive" and "smooth" connote different thing s to different people. Your responses will be so subjective they'll be meaningless.

What I can tell you is that if you do not have to make corrections through the corner, you can be going faster. (And I'm not talking about wild tail-hangin' one way, then another, save-a-spin type corrections.)

APKhaos

This is a great topic. With just one season of racing in the bag, its an issue I always wrestle with. It seems to me that the track/tires/conditions give you more lattitude for aggression sometimes, and sometimes less. Maybe its an attitude thing, but I seem to find that these conditions factors determine if really pushing the limits is faster or not.

I've been getting video from pro race teams, in qualifying and in races. Seems to me that almost every qualifying run involves driving at the very limit most of the time for these guys. I guess that argues for pushing every time, in qualifying at least. Take a look at this Grand AM Rolex series GT Qualifying as an example. Smooth or aggressive? You be the judge.

M758

Tony,
Interesting Video.

I have driven that track so I have reference point on the corners. Anyway from that in car he seems very relaxed and smooth. In one spot the car got a bit loose, but seems under control. I know that in car video of me on that same track has me "driving the car" much more. I give my spec car many many more inputs that he does.

RJay

Which brings me to another couple of questions. How much do you steer after initial turn-in? And how much of that correction steering is with the throttle rather than the wheel?

M758

Well right after turn in at most tracks I am still on the brakes to a degree. Therefore corrections are with the steering and brake pedal. Usally once I get the car to turn where I need I get back on the go pedal to stop the rotation start getting out of the turn. Given the little hp my car has I do few if any corrections on the way out of corner. I do most of mine on the way in. Simply If I am correcting on the way out for the most part I am not full throttle or am giving up speed. On the way in I am usally either trying to get the car to turn or trying to limit how much it is turning. If the car start to turn way too much give her gas, turn the other way and hope it hooks up. If it does not turn enough brake more, lift, and correct with steering as needed.

Remember howeve my car only has 134 hp to the rear wheels. So putting that level power down is easy. The trick is come into the corner as fast as possible and be able to get the car ready to give it power as soon as possible. Plus my Toyo's are ok with alot of sliding.

Larry Herman

If I'm driving well, on most corners the ONLY steering I do after initial turn-in is to unwind the wheel, and make to make quick corrections. Unless I really blow the turn, none of the corrections I do is with the throttle, as that is to the floor already. If I have a turn where I can't get the throttle to the floor before the apex, I readjust my line to do so. There are some instances where this is not possible, and in those few cases I try to slowly and constantly feed the throttle to the floor; because it is so long, turn 5 at the Glen (the one after the bus stop) is such a turn.

Nordschleife

I have been fortunate enough to have driven with Walter R when he had been 'getting it on' at the Green Hell. He is smooth as silk, this from the man who finds track racing boring compared to rallying.
Similarly, I have driven with the guy who taught Michael Chawbacca how to do it on ice, he was very disappointed with Chawbacca's technique and had to 'rebuid his swing', as it were, all that sawing away at the wheel was counter productive. As he also coached Colin McCrea, I'd say he knows his stuff.

R+C
PS if you don't know who Chawbacca is, you were not at Monaco last weekend.

joey bagadonuts

In trying to define this line, here's what Ross Bentley wrote in the original Speed Secrets, IIRC. You should drive at the minimum slip angle which produces maximum grip. Also, if your car feels like you're driving on rails, then you're not pushing hard enough. He also advocates minimal inputs and smoothness but still recognizes the need to magic a lap in qualifying or in certain race situations.
Great topic, Larry!