944 Swaybar setup for DE's
05-23-2005, 11:26 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
944 Swaybar setup for DE's
Background: I've been running the following setup for a couple of years now:
Front: stock 27mm bar.
Rear: 19mm 968 M030 3-way adjustable bar set to full firm.
I believe this combination helps to dial out some of the inherent understeer our cars exhibit. With this setup, my car rotates better, but the setup isn't that radical that I have to worry about the tail wiggling too much. I call it a 'plus one' setup - front is stock, and the rear bar is a notch up from the stock bar.
Upgrade direction: I am upgrading my swaybars to the following:
Front: M030 30mm bar.
Rear: Weltmeister 22mm fully adjustable bar. (Unless anyone here can sell me the elusive Turbo Cup rear sway bar....
)
I'd like to know where to set the rear Weltmeister bar so the handling will the comprable to my current setup. I am thinking of setting the Welt bar somewhere in the middle - maybe a hair towards the firmer side. That should give me a good starting point and I can adjust firmer or softer depending on how the car feels.
Does that make sense?
The rest of the equation looks like this:
The rest of the suspension: all original & stock.
Shocks: Koni Yellows (setting unknown) (Factory option: 474 - Sport Shock absorbers)
Wheels / tires:
DE: 8Jx16 at all four corners, 245-45/16 Toyo Proxes RA-1's
Autox: 7Jx16 front with 225-50/16 RA-1's, 8Jx16 rear with 245-45/16 RA-1's
Though I am sure that a full coil-over suspension upgrade would do wonders for how my car handles, at this point that it too cost-prohibitive. (But if you have other options - please voice them here!!)
I am looking for a setup that works well for both DE and autox, with a priority on DE.
Any input is appreciated!
-Zoltan.
Front: stock 27mm bar.
Rear: 19mm 968 M030 3-way adjustable bar set to full firm.
I believe this combination helps to dial out some of the inherent understeer our cars exhibit. With this setup, my car rotates better, but the setup isn't that radical that I have to worry about the tail wiggling too much. I call it a 'plus one' setup - front is stock, and the rear bar is a notch up from the stock bar.
Upgrade direction: I am upgrading my swaybars to the following:
Front: M030 30mm bar.
Rear: Weltmeister 22mm fully adjustable bar. (Unless anyone here can sell me the elusive Turbo Cup rear sway bar....
)I'd like to know where to set the rear Weltmeister bar so the handling will the comprable to my current setup. I am thinking of setting the Welt bar somewhere in the middle - maybe a hair towards the firmer side. That should give me a good starting point and I can adjust firmer or softer depending on how the car feels.
Does that make sense?
The rest of the equation looks like this:
The rest of the suspension: all original & stock.
Shocks: Koni Yellows (setting unknown) (Factory option: 474 - Sport Shock absorbers)
Wheels / tires:
DE: 8Jx16 at all four corners, 245-45/16 Toyo Proxes RA-1's
Autox: 7Jx16 front with 225-50/16 RA-1's, 8Jx16 rear with 245-45/16 RA-1's
Though I am sure that a full coil-over suspension upgrade would do wonders for how my car handles, at this point that it too cost-prohibitive. (But if you have other options - please voice them here!!)
I am looking for a setup that works well for both DE and autox, with a priority on DE.
Any input is appreciated!
-Zoltan.
05-23-2005, 12:00 PM
#2
Race Director
Zoltan,
Here are my feelings. This is based on 944-spec racing and track time in my 944 Turbo S.
I run the weltmeister sway bars (front and rear in my 944 spec).
The biggest reason I like the welt bars is not because they are stiffer. No I like them since I can adjust them to my liking. I have run my rear welt full soft, full stiff and just about everywhere in between. Right now I run it somewhere in the middle. I have it measured down to the milimeter. I use this bar as tuning tool. So my short answer to your direct question is stary full soft and move stiffer in 10 mm to 20 mm increments until are happy. This bar is easy to adjust at the track or autocross (takes 10 min)
The bigger issue is that I don't believe this will help you any. Here is my thinking
Now you are running a stock weight car with soft stock springs and slightly stiffer sway bars. Making your sway bars just bit stiffer is fine, but has a couple issues.
1) You won't see much of a stiffness increase in cornering and none under braking.
2) Having very stiff sway bars and stock springs can lead to odd handling. For a time I ran my 944-spec with 28 mm rear torsion bars. To get the balance I wanted I cranked the rear sway bar full stiff. While it gave me the balance I wanted it also hurt my rear traction. This is because as you get very stiff on swaybar the suspension starts to work like solid axle vs an indepentant suspension. This can especaily pronounced when the main springs are soft. The proper solution was stiffer rear springs (30 mm is what I needed given my front spring rate at the time). It allowed me to run my rear bar softer to improve traction and keep the balance I liked.
Really I think you should be looking at springs. I assume you still want to keep the car comfortable on the street. So 250 lbs spring in stock weight car is not unreasonable. It also means you can stay with your stock strut tops to reduce the cost. In the rear you have not choice, but to go with torsion bars. Simply the cost of coilovers is high. In my opinion to do a combo coilover t-bar setup right you still need to re index the t-bars to compensate for the extra spring. Well once you do that you could have just changed the t-bars in the first place. 28 mm t-bars are good match for 250 lbs springs.
So install 250/28 mm combo. Parts can be had for under $500 and you will still have an acceptable street ride. It will help both Ax and DE performance (not sure about Ax classing) by having a huge change in body roll.
I have driven my stock 951 at the track. Even with M030 on the car it pitchs and rolls ALOT. I know your car rolls alot too. So I think the best plan is to spend the money on 250/28 combo. Coilovers are nice, but unless you need to adjust ride height all the time or want to run over 350lbs-in spring rates they won't be worth it IMHO. If you wanted to Fstock race the story would be different, but gradually moving up as you are. Nope keep it simple is the best plan. 28 mm t-bars are simple. Install them once and you will never need to mess with them again.
Here are my feelings. This is based on 944-spec racing and track time in my 944 Turbo S.
I run the weltmeister sway bars (front and rear in my 944 spec).
The biggest reason I like the welt bars is not because they are stiffer. No I like them since I can adjust them to my liking. I have run my rear welt full soft, full stiff and just about everywhere in between. Right now I run it somewhere in the middle. I have it measured down to the milimeter. I use this bar as tuning tool. So my short answer to your direct question is stary full soft and move stiffer in 10 mm to 20 mm increments until are happy. This bar is easy to adjust at the track or autocross (takes 10 min)
The bigger issue is that I don't believe this will help you any. Here is my thinking
Now you are running a stock weight car with soft stock springs and slightly stiffer sway bars. Making your sway bars just bit stiffer is fine, but has a couple issues.
1) You won't see much of a stiffness increase in cornering and none under braking.
2) Having very stiff sway bars and stock springs can lead to odd handling. For a time I ran my 944-spec with 28 mm rear torsion bars. To get the balance I wanted I cranked the rear sway bar full stiff. While it gave me the balance I wanted it also hurt my rear traction. This is because as you get very stiff on swaybar the suspension starts to work like solid axle vs an indepentant suspension. This can especaily pronounced when the main springs are soft. The proper solution was stiffer rear springs (30 mm is what I needed given my front spring rate at the time). It allowed me to run my rear bar softer to improve traction and keep the balance I liked.
Really I think you should be looking at springs. I assume you still want to keep the car comfortable on the street. So 250 lbs spring in stock weight car is not unreasonable. It also means you can stay with your stock strut tops to reduce the cost. In the rear you have not choice, but to go with torsion bars. Simply the cost of coilovers is high. In my opinion to do a combo coilover t-bar setup right you still need to re index the t-bars to compensate for the extra spring. Well once you do that you could have just changed the t-bars in the first place. 28 mm t-bars are good match for 250 lbs springs.
So install 250/28 mm combo. Parts can be had for under $500 and you will still have an acceptable street ride. It will help both Ax and DE performance (not sure about Ax classing) by having a huge change in body roll.
I have driven my stock 951 at the track. Even with M030 on the car it pitchs and rolls ALOT. I know your car rolls alot too. So I think the best plan is to spend the money on 250/28 combo. Coilovers are nice, but unless you need to adjust ride height all the time or want to run over 350lbs-in spring rates they won't be worth it IMHO. If you wanted to Fstock race the story would be different, but gradually moving up as you are. Nope keep it simple is the best plan. 28 mm t-bars are simple. Install them once and you will never need to mess with them again.
05-23-2005, 12:31 PM
#3
Race Director
Thread Starter
Joe:
Thanks for the response. I am already in talks with my suspension guy about various upgrades, including what you mentino. (It sounds like the most reasonable solution!)
Do you feel that the M030 front / Welt rear combo is too stiff for a 944 with stock suspension? Your explanation of going too firm in the rear makes perfect sense - that is what I wish to avoid!
- Z.
Thanks for the response. I am already in talks with my suspension guy about various upgrades, including what you mentino. (It sounds like the most reasonable solution!)
Do you feel that the M030 front / Welt rear combo is too stiff for a 944 with stock suspension? Your explanation of going too firm in the rear makes perfect sense - that is what I wish to avoid!
- Z.
05-23-2005, 01:19 PM
#4
Race Director
Originally Posted by Z-man
Joe:
Do you feel that the M030 front / Welt rear combo is too stiff for a 944 with stock suspension? Your explanation of going too firm in the rear makes perfect sense - that is what I wish to avoid!
- Z.
Do you feel that the M030 front / Welt rear combo is too stiff for a 944 with stock suspension? Your explanation of going too firm in the rear makes perfect sense - that is what I wish to avoid!
- Z.
Lets see. What front springs did the 968 M030 use? I know they used rear helpers.
Seems to me that it could be ok, but then I might not do very much for you. On the other hand it could be doing too much given stock springs.
If you come clost to the effecive wheel rate of the 968 M030 you will probably be ok. What I mean to say is that Porsche put their "M030" bars on the 968 as an option so they should work on your S2. However I don't know how much the increased the spring rate woth M030 as well.
So the delma is that if the sways bars work well with stock springs that is great since they are not too stiff. However if they may also not be stiff ENOUGH to feel much of a change.
However if they are stiff enough to feel change it may impact the balance in poor maner. Hmm.... this suspension crap is never easy.
I do feel however that for a track driven car springs are for controlling body roll, sway bars are for balance tuning (under/over steer), and dampers are for transition tuning (turn in feel, hills & dips, etc)
05-23-2005, 02:33 PM
#5
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hey;
What you are talking about with the stiff bars and soft spring is Roll Stiffness. It is indeed all a system.
A Weltmeister front is 28mm I think, so it is close to the 30mm 968 M030. For a car with stiff springs, this is fine, but is a bit much for softer springing. Setting it to full soft is probably where you want it.
As Joe mentioned, start at full soft on the rear to get a feel for the parameters involved. It will understeer, for sure, but it is also very easy to change the rear bar settings. Just a 9/16" wrench and you're set. I'd move it about a collar width at a time, which is around an inch. You will quicky get as a sense of where you need to be, and can fine tune from there. This should be a good setup.
If you go to stiffer springs, you learn that sways do much less to control roll, and more to tune balance. Joe mentioned that bigger T-bars and stiffer coils is the cheap way to go. That is true on the face of it, as it pertains to parts, but he didn't mention that the annoying labor involved to do T-bars, which he does himself!
Anyone paying to have it done will not like the idea so much.
The bigger question to me is where do you want to end up? If you are racing spec like Joe, then you can only go to a limited place. If that matches your future needs as far as you can see them, then that is fine. If you can see yourself making a serious car out of it someday, and have the money to do it twice with a compromise setup in the meantime, then go for it. If you are not inclined to spend the money for a stop-gap short terms setup, then be patient and wait.
That's what I did; waited till I found / could afford what I really wanted, and then got it. It was kinda boring for a few years there, but I did not pay twice for the work, and didn't have a slightly used setup lying around that was worth pennies on the dollar either.
Having ridden with you, Z, I'd say do your bars and give it a season. You drive very well, but there's more in the old bucket yet just like it is.
What you are talking about with the stiff bars and soft spring is Roll Stiffness. It is indeed all a system.
A Weltmeister front is 28mm I think, so it is close to the 30mm 968 M030. For a car with stiff springs, this is fine, but is a bit much for softer springing. Setting it to full soft is probably where you want it.
As Joe mentioned, start at full soft on the rear to get a feel for the parameters involved. It will understeer, for sure, but it is also very easy to change the rear bar settings. Just a 9/16" wrench and you're set. I'd move it about a collar width at a time, which is around an inch. You will quicky get as a sense of where you need to be, and can fine tune from there. This should be a good setup.
If you go to stiffer springs, you learn that sways do much less to control roll, and more to tune balance. Joe mentioned that bigger T-bars and stiffer coils is the cheap way to go. That is true on the face of it, as it pertains to parts, but he didn't mention that the annoying labor involved to do T-bars, which he does himself!
Anyone paying to have it done will not like the idea so much.The bigger question to me is where do you want to end up? If you are racing spec like Joe, then you can only go to a limited place. If that matches your future needs as far as you can see them, then that is fine. If you can see yourself making a serious car out of it someday, and have the money to do it twice with a compromise setup in the meantime, then go for it. If you are not inclined to spend the money for a stop-gap short terms setup, then be patient and wait.
That's what I did; waited till I found / could afford what I really wanted, and then got it. It was kinda boring for a few years there, but I did not pay twice for the work, and didn't have a slightly used setup lying around that was worth pennies on the dollar either.
Having ridden with you, Z, I'd say do your bars and give it a season. You drive very well, but there's more in the old bucket yet just like it is.
05-24-2005, 11:56 AM
#6
Race Director
Thread Starter
Joe, John:
Thanks for the responses. I will go with the new sways and keep the other upgrade options in mind. I'll start with the rear bar on the softer side of neutral, and adjust as I go along.
John: thanks for the kind words. I'll have you know that I did take it up a notch at Lime Rock and Pocono this past April - got a little more entry speed into the corners!
-Z.
Thanks for the responses. I will go with the new sways and keep the other upgrade options in mind. I'll start with the rear bar on the softer side of neutral, and adjust as I go along.
John: thanks for the kind words. I'll have you know that I did take it up a notch at Lime Rock and Pocono this past April - got a little more entry speed into the corners!
-Z.
05-24-2005, 12:54 PM
#7
Drifting
Z-Man,
Out of curiosity, have you tried reducing understeer through different alignment settings? When I had my stock suspension I went more aggressive on the front and it was a huge difference in balance.
I'd also echo John's comments about installing an interim upgrade or waiting for the 'big bang' mods. I thought it over for years before deciding to do it all at once. It wasn't cheap and there are a lot of new variables to play with (bar settings, shock settings, alignment, and I haven't even thought of changing springs yet), but the car is now a hoot to drive.
Out of curiosity, have you tried reducing understeer through different alignment settings? When I had my stock suspension I went more aggressive on the front and it was a huge difference in balance.
I'd also echo John's comments about installing an interim upgrade or waiting for the 'big bang' mods. I thought it over for years before deciding to do it all at once. It wasn't cheap and there are a lot of new variables to play with (bar settings, shock settings, alignment, and I haven't even thought of changing springs yet), but the car is now a hoot to drive.
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05-24-2005, 02:20 PM
#8
Race Director
Thread Starter
Jerome -
I haven't messed too much with the alignment settings - caster is zero (I think), toe in/toe out are mildly adjusted, and camber is about max I can get with the stock suspension: about -1.5.
Using 245's at all for corners really helped dial out the understeer. The way the car handles right now, it is much more neutral with a slight lean towards oversteer. I am very comfortable with this setting, and that's why I was concerned about my planned swaybar upgrade - I don't wish to alter the balance too much.
-Z.
I haven't messed too much with the alignment settings - caster is zero (I think), toe in/toe out are mildly adjusted, and camber is about max I can get with the stock suspension: about -1.5.
Using 245's at all for corners really helped dial out the understeer. The way the car handles right now, it is much more neutral with a slight lean towards oversteer. I am very comfortable with this setting, and that's why I was concerned about my planned swaybar upgrade - I don't wish to alter the balance too much.
-Z.
05-24-2005, 02:59 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Z-man
Jerome -
I haven't messed too much with the alignment settings - caster is zero (I think), toe in/toe out are mildly adjusted, and camber is about max I can get with the stock suspension: about -1.5.
Using 245's at all for corners really helped dial out the understeer. The way the car handles right now, it is much more neutral with a slight lean towards oversteer. I am very comfortable with this setting, and that's why I was concerned about my planned swaybar upgrade - I don't wish to alter the balance too much.
-Z.
I haven't messed too much with the alignment settings - caster is zero (I think), toe in/toe out are mildly adjusted, and camber is about max I can get with the stock suspension: about -1.5.
Using 245's at all for corners really helped dial out the understeer. The way the car handles right now, it is much more neutral with a slight lean towards oversteer. I am very comfortable with this setting, and that's why I was concerned about my planned swaybar upgrade - I don't wish to alter the balance too much.
-Z.
auto-x specific alignment settings make for an unstable car on the track.
just my opinion
