Track Video from the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
05-10-2005, 01:53 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
Not entirely true. if you look at hans Stuck driving, and (ive been a pylon for him a few times! (albeit with 150lesshp!) you see him drive and his hand position, you see what im talking about. These books with their list of reasons for why its ok, is sometimes taken of context as it is in this discussion. No, i dont believe there is any reason to shuffle steer. (moving one hand in an occasional need to increase leverage, can be ok if the other hand remians in place) I race and have driven from the DE days til now, making that techique a first priority. I think i had a head start , as i never did much of that even driving on the street. Friends that ive also instructed have had a hard time breaking this bad habit. But , the ones that want to get better and be safer, have told me it was the best thing they ever did to improve their skill set overall. its really a control foundation.
you can either make excuses of why its ok, or learn from those of us that know how difficult, and limiting it is to drive at the limits while shuffle steering.
I race a stock 928 with Grand Am Cup type mods. (ie headers, suspension, weight, thats it) that even has its stock sterring wheel. Ive also driven many other cars with stock wheels and different steering ratios. ive never felt a need to move my hands around. (except in the paddock while parking or driving on to the track!)
the Barber quote is really for Autocross and for recovery of extreme vehicle attitudes. yes, ive had to shuffle steer to correct in some cases, but its rare. I will tell you that it may be worth practicing this , but as a driving style there is no place for it in my opinion. See the difference?
Mk
you can either make excuses of why its ok, or learn from those of us that know how difficult, and limiting it is to drive at the limits while shuffle steering.
I race a stock 928 with Grand Am Cup type mods. (ie headers, suspension, weight, thats it) that even has its stock sterring wheel. Ive also driven many other cars with stock wheels and different steering ratios. ive never felt a need to move my hands around. (except in the paddock while parking or driving on to the track!)
the Barber quote is really for Autocross and for recovery of extreme vehicle attitudes. yes, ive had to shuffle steer to correct in some cases, but its rare. I will tell you that it may be worth practicing this , but as a driving style there is no place for it in my opinion. See the difference?
Mk
Originally Posted by Renn 951
Mark, I don't think it is fair to TD in DC to keep telling him he is doing something wrong if his hands don't look like the top pro drivers. You keep saying, "if shuffle steering is OK, why don't these top racers do it?" The fact is those guys have a different setup and steering ratio than what TD is working with on his own street car.
Let us refer to the "holy scriptures," Skip Barber's "Going Faster," page 225 in my edition:
"The number of turns lock to lock in a showroom stock car is much greater than that of a lightweight formula car. In many true race cars, you very seldom have to move your hands from the 3 and 9 position to get as much steering lock as you will ever need. Not so in a street sedan -- frequently, you have to reposition your hands in the middle of a steering correction to get enough lock to save the day. It pays to practice shuffle steer to ensure that you can get the size of correction you need when the time comes. Shuffle steer involves being prepared to quickly relieve whichever is the top hand on the steering wheel so that you can pull downward with the helping hand to add more lock than you could by crossing your arms."
So while you are correct, Mark, that the ideal setup is one where you don't have to ever move your hands, the ideal isn't always reality. I started doing DE's in my Audi S4, and when I got my 951 I found the steering ratio wasn't as quick and it was a lot harder taking some turns without my arms getting too crossed. An instructor 3 years ago suggested I try shuffle steering in those corners and it has worked out well for me. My 951 isn't exactly a "street sedan" as mentioned in the Skip Barber book, and neither is TD's 911, but they aren't Formula race cars either. In any event, no less an authority than Skip Barber does recommend practicing shuffle steering techniques. I think the approach the PCA Potomac Instructors take in encouraging students to try various techniques and see what works best for them is admirable.
I understand you have lots of racing experience, Mark, and you've figured out techniques that work well for you and that you advocate others use and you are trying to help them out. I admit I don't have anything close to your experience, but I do believe that on the track, as in life, some questions are better answered by starting with "it depends..." rather than starting with "you must always..."
Let us refer to the "holy scriptures," Skip Barber's "Going Faster," page 225 in my edition:
"The number of turns lock to lock in a showroom stock car is much greater than that of a lightweight formula car. In many true race cars, you very seldom have to move your hands from the 3 and 9 position to get as much steering lock as you will ever need. Not so in a street sedan -- frequently, you have to reposition your hands in the middle of a steering correction to get enough lock to save the day. It pays to practice shuffle steer to ensure that you can get the size of correction you need when the time comes. Shuffle steer involves being prepared to quickly relieve whichever is the top hand on the steering wheel so that you can pull downward with the helping hand to add more lock than you could by crossing your arms."
So while you are correct, Mark, that the ideal setup is one where you don't have to ever move your hands, the ideal isn't always reality. I started doing DE's in my Audi S4, and when I got my 951 I found the steering ratio wasn't as quick and it was a lot harder taking some turns without my arms getting too crossed. An instructor 3 years ago suggested I try shuffle steering in those corners and it has worked out well for me. My 951 isn't exactly a "street sedan" as mentioned in the Skip Barber book, and neither is TD's 911, but they aren't Formula race cars either. In any event, no less an authority than Skip Barber does recommend practicing shuffle steering techniques. I think the approach the PCA Potomac Instructors take in encouraging students to try various techniques and see what works best for them is admirable.
I understand you have lots of racing experience, Mark, and you've figured out techniques that work well for you and that you advocate others use and you are trying to help them out. I admit I don't have anything close to your experience, but I do believe that on the track, as in life, some questions are better answered by starting with "it depends..." rather than starting with "you must always..."
05-10-2005, 10:46 PM
#77
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hmmm...
I was looking at my last-weekend's Mid Ohio tapes for the first time tonite at dinner. Just went back and looked again relative to this conversation. I shuffle steer big time for Keyhole & Carousel. At times the wheel moves almost 180 degrees. With my bad elbows and wrists, plus a fairly close seat/wheel, my arms simply don't/can't bend that far. I probably do it too much in 8. In other corners I "leverage steer" (move one hand). In others my hands do not move. My grip always stays pretty light, and yet my hands still go numb at times. Age and injury sucks!
Don't get all worked up either way about shuffle steering. Try to limit it, but don't $hit a brick over it either.
The best look slow? I look slow!
My car IS slow. 
No matter how big a hard drive you have, it still gets filled. I can't even edit my excellent video from last weekend! 
84 944 - +/-1:52 at Mid O. 2nd event there. More speed to come.
I was looking at my last-weekend's Mid Ohio tapes for the first time tonite at dinner. Just went back and looked again relative to this conversation. I shuffle steer big time for Keyhole & Carousel. At times the wheel moves almost 180 degrees. With my bad elbows and wrists, plus a fairly close seat/wheel, my arms simply don't/can't bend that far. I probably do it too much in 8. In other corners I "leverage steer" (move one hand). In others my hands do not move. My grip always stays pretty light, and yet my hands still go numb at times. Age and injury sucks!
Don't get all worked up either way about shuffle steering. Try to limit it, but don't $hit a brick over it either.
The best look slow? I look slow!
My car IS slow. No matter how big a hard drive you have, it still gets filled. I can't even edit my excellent video from last weekend! 84 944 - +/-1:52 at Mid O. 2nd event there. More speed to come.
05-11-2005, 09:40 AM
#78
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Hmmm...
I was looking at my last-weekend's Mid Ohio tapes for the first time tonite at dinner. Just went back and looked again relative to this conversation. I shuffle steer big time for Keyhole & Carousel. At times the wheel moves almost 180 degrees. With my bad elbows and wrists, plus a fairly close seat/wheel, my arms simply don't/can't bend that far. I probably do it too much in 8. In other corners I "leverage steer" (move one hand). In others my hands do not move. My grip always stays pretty light, and yet my hands still go numb at times. Age and injury sucks!
Don't get all worked up either way about shuffle steering. Try to limit it, but don't $hit a brick over it either.
The best look slow? I look slow! My car IS slow. No matter how big a hard drive you have, it still gets filled. I can't even edit my excellent video from last weekend!
84 944 - +/-1:52 at Mid O. 2nd event there. More speed to come.
I was looking at my last-weekend's Mid Ohio tapes for the first time tonite at dinner. Just went back and looked again relative to this conversation. I shuffle steer big time for Keyhole & Carousel. At times the wheel moves almost 180 degrees. With my bad elbows and wrists, plus a fairly close seat/wheel, my arms simply don't/can't bend that far. I probably do it too much in 8. In other corners I "leverage steer" (move one hand). In others my hands do not move. My grip always stays pretty light, and yet my hands still go numb at times. Age and injury sucks!
Don't get all worked up either way about shuffle steering. Try to limit it, but don't $hit a brick over it either.
The best look slow? I look slow!
My car IS slow. No matter how big a hard drive you have, it still gets filled. I can't even edit my excellent video from last weekend! 84 944 - +/-1:52 at Mid O. 2nd event there. More speed to come.
.
05-11-2005, 10:44 AM
#79
Driver Carries No Cash
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mark kibort
check out this video of a race several years ago at Laguna.
ftp://928m:928m@64.118.41.87/928MVid...apsvictory.mpg
ftp://928m:928m@64.118.41.87/928MVid...apsvictory.mpg
Forget looking at your hand position, I'm watching the racing!
