Track Video from the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
05-05-2005, 05:31 PM
#46
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One tip I'll offer for keeping a light touch on the wheel: whenever you get to a straight, twiddle your fingers a bit and just stretch them out to keep them loose. You'll find yourself doing this more and more often all over the course (like I have found) and it really helps keep your hands (and mind) relaxed. Definitely a zen thing. I found that once I started doing this (on the advice of an instructor) I started keeping a very light touch on the wheel, and it truly does help you feel the road better.
BTW, TD- I really admire your approach to learning. It will reward you quickly, trust me. There's no faster way to learn than by starting with a slow car and a lot of humility.
BTW, TD- I really admire your approach to learning. It will reward you quickly, trust me. There's no faster way to learn than by starting with a slow car and a lot of humility.
05-05-2005, 06:59 PM
#47
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Yes, Todd is right. Listen to what he says, its one of the most important things you learn. Even more important than LINE in my opinion. Its fine if you are in a tux and driving a caddie limo, but has NO place in racing. one of the common demominators of a lot of un-needed spins, is this shuffling technique. grip the wheel, and off you go. If you dont feel comfortable, too bad!
Great example is a guy driving a viper at the recent speed WC GT race at Sebring. he ran a pretty quick time, almost 1-2 seconds behind the leaders........ but he spun 3-4 times in the race. Look at any of the top drivers, They NEVER move their hands on the wheels!!
If you want to get better fast, and safe, make this a priority. trust Greg and me!
MK
Great example is a guy driving a viper at the recent speed WC GT race at Sebring. he ran a pretty quick time, almost 1-2 seconds behind the leaders........ but he spun 3-4 times in the race. Look at any of the top drivers, They NEVER move their hands on the wheels!!
If you want to get better fast, and safe, make this a priority. trust Greg and me!
MK
Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Todd,
I don't want to get way off track but I disagree with you very much in your assesement. You are gripping and regripping the steering wheel constantly and in corners where you don't need more than 90 degrees (1/4 turn) of steering input. Watch the video below and tell me how many times Cort Wagner does what you are doing. Granted this track does not have the tighter corners that mid ohio does he is not shuffle steering in corners where you would be.
willow springs video
You may not need to do what he does (you aren't at the limit of your car all the time) but you should not be moving your hands around to cover up for bad technique (too tight of a grip on the wheel).
I don't want to get way off track but I disagree with you very much in your assesement. You are gripping and regripping the steering wheel constantly and in corners where you don't need more than 90 degrees (1/4 turn) of steering input. Watch the video below and tell me how many times Cort Wagner does what you are doing. Granted this track does not have the tighter corners that mid ohio does he is not shuffle steering in corners where you would be.
willow springs video
You may not need to do what he does (you aren't at the limit of your car all the time) but you should not be moving your hands around to cover up for bad technique (too tight of a grip on the wheel).
05-05-2005, 07:04 PM
#48
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thats fine for teaching and in DEs, but make no mistake, the best guys make the car not move too much, but the wheel is being sawed at pretty violently.
in no way are the hands "quiet" like folks say. watch the incar of Hurley, auberlen, pruet sometime
Mk
in no way are the hands "quiet" like folks say. watch the incar of Hurley, auberlen, pruet sometime
Mk
Originally Posted by MRW
FWIW, I had the opportunity to do several fast laps at Barber as a passenger with Hurley Haywood driving the PDE stock C2 instructor car. At one point, he said to me, "Watch my hands." He had an incredibly light touch, no violent movements, and yes, he shuffle-steered through the hairpin and recommended that technique. I'm cetainly a low-experience driver and no expert, but I do think that it's much easier to stay glued at 9 and 3 in tight turns with a quicker-ratio car (i.e. the Lotus in the video) than the 911, and the comparison to F1 is unfair- that's half a turn lock to lock. Anyway, it was very cool to watch Haywood, and all this probably means is that different things work well for different people. Standard disclaimer applies. Cheers!
05-05-2005, 07:05 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
Great example is a guy driving a viper at the recent speed WC GT race at Sebring. he ran a pretty quick time, almost 1-2 seconds behind the leaders........ but he spun 3-4 times in the race. Look at any of the top drivers, They NEVER move their hands on the wheels!!
If you have that video bookmarked could you post it? That was a great example of what not to do. He could have been a top finisher without those spins.
05-05-2005, 07:10 PM
#50
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yeah, but he wasnt shuffling. Im as guilty of the one hand problem as most, but im getting much better. mainly due to a shifter issue.
however, its not shuffling. lots of reasons why not to shuffle.
mainly, you want to know where neutral is on the wheel. if you always are at 3-9, you know. if you are at random places, and your car gets out of shape or someone bangs into you and gets you out of shape, your lighting fast reflexes are douced with no way of knowing where the wheel is! (and you dont want to be looking for a "line " on the wheel!)
chip herr shuffles, runs fast , but also gets into problems, i believe, because if it. he is young , fast driver, but needs to change this too! like I said , the best dont do it.
MK
MK
however, its not shuffling. lots of reasons why not to shuffle.
mainly, you want to know where neutral is on the wheel. if you always are at 3-9, you know. if you are at random places, and your car gets out of shape or someone bangs into you and gets you out of shape, your lighting fast reflexes are douced with no way of knowing where the wheel is! (and you dont want to be looking for a "line " on the wheel!)
chip herr shuffles, runs fast , but also gets into problems, i believe, because if it. he is young , fast driver, but needs to change this too! like I said , the best dont do it.
MK
MK
Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
The problem when you get your hands up high (like 2 and 10 vs 3 and 9) is that you limit the amount of steering input you can make without moving your hands. Sometimes the steering wheel dictates where you and place your hands. A smaller steering wheel might help as well.
Best way to break the habit is to just not do it and constantly practice correctly. There are no hard and fast rules that you can't shuffle steer but very few of the fast guys do. Side note: a few years ago I watched a Speed Challenge Touring race and the in-car showed. I believe the driver was Neal Sapp in a Turner prepped BMW. He drove with one hand on the steering wheel and one on the shifter the whole time. His technique was interesting and he was obviously fast, but I can't imagine anyone teaching that technique.
Best way to break the habit is to just not do it and constantly practice correctly. There are no hard and fast rules that you can't shuffle steer but very few of the fast guys do. Side note: a few years ago I watched a Speed Challenge Touring race and the in-car showed. I believe the driver was Neal Sapp in a Turner prepped BMW. He drove with one hand on the steering wheel and one on the shifter the whole time. His technique was interesting and he was obviously fast, but I can't imagine anyone teaching that technique.
05-05-2005, 07:12 PM
#51
Originally Posted by mark kibort
thats fine for teaching and in DEs, but make no mistake, the best guys make the car not move too much, but the wheel is being sawed at pretty violently.
in no way are the hands "quiet" like folks say. watch the incar of Hurley, auberlen, pruet sometime
Mk
in no way are the hands "quiet" like folks say. watch the incar of Hurley, auberlen, pruet sometime
Mk
I think that it is easy for very good drivers to forget how hard, and at times counter-intuitive, it is to learn the basic skills well enough that they become subconcious habit.
05-05-2005, 07:15 PM
#52
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Ill see if i can track it down. actually, Mike Hartley is a nice guy and we talked about his drive. I think he will be changing. especially if someone pointed me out the cause and effect to me too!
look for mike hartley on the web or on the speedWC discussion board.
i think it is MJH Racing or something.
Ill try and find it. HERE IT IS . DONT DO THIS!!!!!!!!
http://www.mjhracing.com/video.htm
MK
look for mike hartley on the web or on the speedWC discussion board.
i think it is MJH Racing or something.
Ill try and find it. HERE IT IS . DONT DO THIS!!!!!!!!
http://www.mjhracing.com/video.htm
MK
Originally Posted by Greg Fishman
Mark,
If you have that video bookmarked could you post it? That was a great example of what not to do. He could have been a top finisher without those spins.
If you have that video bookmarked could you post it? That was a great example of what not to do. He could have been a top finisher without those spins.
05-05-2005, 11:04 PM
#53
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I did track time with Chin Motorsports at Sebring and the instructor was constantly telling me to shuffle my hands. It was against everything I knew and was very distracting. He was also asking me constant question about flags and apexes while driving at speed. It was very hard to concentrate and had one close call while on a high speed sweeper when he was asking about flags and the boost hit. There are some bad instructors out there. I did get a different instructor in the afternoon and it was night and day.
David
David
05-06-2005, 08:22 AM
#55
You should be consistent in checking flag stations before you start driving fast.
Be safe for yourself and others on the track.
I would not want to be in a car where the driver is driving fast (which I don't mind) but not checking flag stations (let me get out of the car quick).
Just my .02 cents
Be safe for yourself and others on the track.
I would not want to be in a car where the driver is driving fast (which I don't mind) but not checking flag stations (let me get out of the car quick).
Just my .02 cents
05-06-2005, 10:13 AM
#56
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One point people who are pro shuffling is that if you need to make a sudden correction during a turn, because your hads are in 9-3 position (not 9-3 on steering wheel), you have more "turn" to both directions if you need to correct.
I disagree with that.
in a way it's true what they're saying but 99 out of 100 times (I think it's 100 out of 100 but let's put that 1% there just in case) during a turn if you have to make aggressive, really fast correction, it is counter steering, not turning more in which case having your hands always in 9-3 position on streering wheel and not shuffling will give you more "turn" to counter steer and correct the slide.
I agree with Mark regarding "busy steering wheel".
If you don't count Alain Prost, all the good drivers have their "hands full" often. To me it's great to watch car go through the turn in controlled little slide or slight four wheel drift (that you don't almost even see) and at the same time see the driver have their "hands full" inside the cocpit.
I myself had great fun and in a way, was doing exactly that same thing. Couple of weekends ago I had new front tyres, car really set up well at Homestead and I could make the car oversteer or understeer when I wanted, it was really well balanced.
Especially on turn 3 where you have to get the car rotating I'd always trail brake late and get the car rotating, from then on the car was sliding a little through the turn, you might've not even seen the slide or you saw a constant little slide (ok, some times big since I by no means am great driver) but inside the cocpit, let me tell you I had my hands full!
That Gort video is a great example of a great driver as well.
Even though he's not going crazy you can see he's "on the edge" and making slight adjustments constantly. Just great driving.
Although the best part imo is when he's trying to get that car go little faster on the front straight!
I disagree with that.
in a way it's true what they're saying but 99 out of 100 times (I think it's 100 out of 100 but let's put that 1% there just in case) during a turn if you have to make aggressive, really fast correction, it is counter steering, not turning more in which case having your hands always in 9-3 position on streering wheel and not shuffling will give you more "turn" to counter steer and correct the slide.
I agree with Mark regarding "busy steering wheel".
If you don't count Alain Prost, all the good drivers have their "hands full" often. To me it's great to watch car go through the turn in controlled little slide or slight four wheel drift (that you don't almost even see) and at the same time see the driver have their "hands full" inside the cocpit.
I myself had great fun and in a way, was doing exactly that same thing. Couple of weekends ago I had new front tyres, car really set up well at Homestead and I could make the car oversteer or understeer when I wanted, it was really well balanced.
Especially on turn 3 where you have to get the car rotating I'd always trail brake late and get the car rotating, from then on the car was sliding a little through the turn, you might've not even seen the slide or you saw a constant little slide (ok, some times big since I by no means am great driver) but inside the cocpit, let me tell you I had my hands full!
That Gort video is a great example of a great driver as well.
Even though he's not going crazy you can see he's "on the edge" and making slight adjustments constantly. Just great driving.
Although the best part imo is when he's trying to get that car go little faster on the front straight!
05-06-2005, 10:56 AM
#57
subconcious competence
I believe that if I want to become a "subconciously competent" driver, I need to use the same driving technique on the street as I do on the track. It doesn't seem possible to maintain a more casual "street" driving style and a more formal "track" driving style. When something unexpected comes, you don't want to have "two" choices to make: you want yourself to revert automatically to the formal "track" driving style.
As such, I try to implement all of the things I am learning on the track into my street driving style (e.g., heel toeing, steering, light shifting). It is with some dismay that I am no longer using seat memory position two, which is also known as the "big pimpin" seat position.
Now, I drive on the street with my seat in track position.
I have been trying to keep my hands fixed on the wheel like many are advocating on this thread. I find that it is physically difficult for me to keep my palms and all fingers in contact with the wheel if it needs to turn much more than 100 degrees (e.g., if I am turning right, it is easy to keep my left hand in the 9 position, but I cannot twist my right arm enough to maintain contact).
My question is this: What do all of you do under those circumstances? Do you keep a thumb hooked? Do you reposition or or both hands at some point?
I am not trying to reject the advice here by any means: I am actually trying to adopt it. I just want to understand what people recommend for very tight turns. Once I understand, I will try to implement it. Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.
As such, I try to implement all of the things I am learning on the track into my street driving style (e.g., heel toeing, steering, light shifting). It is with some dismay that I am no longer using seat memory position two, which is also known as the "big pimpin" seat position.
Now, I drive on the street with my seat in track position.I have been trying to keep my hands fixed on the wheel like many are advocating on this thread. I find that it is physically difficult for me to keep my palms and all fingers in contact with the wheel if it needs to turn much more than 100 degrees (e.g., if I am turning right, it is easy to keep my left hand in the 9 position, but I cannot twist my right arm enough to maintain contact).
My question is this: What do all of you do under those circumstances? Do you keep a thumb hooked? Do you reposition or or both hands at some point?
I am not trying to reject the advice here by any means: I am actually trying to adopt it. I just want to understand what people recommend for very tight turns. Once I understand, I will try to implement it. Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.
05-06-2005, 10:59 AM
#58
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Great video Todd, thank you for posting the video here. I am glad that you are getting a lot of constructive criticism. You are progressing very well and are certainly picking up speed and certainly seem very comfortable.
I am going to be one of the dissenters here... There are really no absolutes here. Shuffle steer is bad -- Shuffle steer is good -- It is something that is easy to focus on. I did not see any case of 'forced' shuffle steering, meaning something that you are being forced to do for the sake of it. When you see it you will recognize it.
For DE -- Shuffle steer is one of the tools that is available to the street-performance driver. This is after-all DE, not a racing school and we are not teaching Pro-Driving techniques. I sometimes use shuffle steer; but, I have never been paid to drive (in a race). I certainly used it when driving Crown Vics on the Shenandoah Circuit and never used it in any of the now antique Formula cars. I agree (with Greg) that Todd is using the tool far more then he needs to at Mid Ohio, but he was smooth, fast (for his run group), and consistent. If Todd wants to learn to race, I suggest a quality racing school and there are many to choose from. The most specific case I can think to not use shuffle steer (in DE) is in cars with shifters that move with the steering wheel (Boxster and 996/997 variants). Paddle shifters that do not move with the steering wheel would definitely be a case for one hand shuffle.
Greg - thanks for posting that Mid Ohio video -- something to aim for, 10,000 laps around Mid Ohio might help most of us to get the track so right. Oddly, I think his apex on keyhole was a tad early, but probably closer to second green apex dot then the first. I never did figure out who uses the first apex dot, 80 or so feet further back, unless it is for CART (or whatever they are called now). I wish we would have had that for the event -- It would have been running in the classroom (the only warm place at the track) continously the entire event. They were out of the track video that I had planned on running in the classroom.
I am going to be one of the dissenters here... There are really no absolutes here. Shuffle steer is bad -- Shuffle steer is good -- It is something that is easy to focus on. I did not see any case of 'forced' shuffle steering, meaning something that you are being forced to do for the sake of it. When you see it you will recognize it.
For DE -- Shuffle steer is one of the tools that is available to the street-performance driver. This is after-all DE, not a racing school and we are not teaching Pro-Driving techniques. I sometimes use shuffle steer; but, I have never been paid to drive (in a race). I certainly used it when driving Crown Vics on the Shenandoah Circuit and never used it in any of the now antique Formula cars. I agree (with Greg) that Todd is using the tool far more then he needs to at Mid Ohio, but he was smooth, fast (for his run group), and consistent. If Todd wants to learn to race, I suggest a quality racing school and there are many to choose from. The most specific case I can think to not use shuffle steer (in DE) is in cars with shifters that move with the steering wheel (Boxster and 996/997 variants). Paddle shifters that do not move with the steering wheel would definitely be a case for one hand shuffle.
Greg - thanks for posting that Mid Ohio video -- something to aim for, 10,000 laps around Mid Ohio might help most of us to get the track so right. Oddly, I think his apex on keyhole was a tad early, but probably closer to second green apex dot then the first. I never did figure out who uses the first apex dot, 80 or so feet further back, unless it is for CART (or whatever they are called now). I wish we would have had that for the event -- It would have been running in the classroom (the only warm place at the track) continously the entire event. They were out of the track video that I had planned on running in the classroom.
Last edited by Alan Herod; 05-06-2005 at 11:44 AM.
05-06-2005, 11:44 AM
#59
Originally Posted by Alan Herod
Great video Todd, thank you for posting the video here. I am glad that you are getting a lot of constructive criticism. You are progressing very well and are certainly picking up speed and certainly seem very comfortable.
I like the criticism. As a newbie, I am guilty of being subconciously incompetent, and I honestly did not notice that I was moving my hands at all apart from the tighter corners. After hearing the criticism, I see the situation very differently in the videos.
I understand that there are no absolutes. Where I sometimes get conflicting advice (neither of my instructors at Mid-Ohio were forcing me to shuffle -- in fact, we were concentrating on all of the other areas where I need improvement
), I plan to try both techniques before I decide what works best for me. Only after I learn how to do a technique properly can I reject it. In this case, I think the real answer is that I wasn't really doing either technique correctly, but rather just moving my hands a little too much in general.I feel fairly certain that I will enter the club racing venue someday. However, I have so much to learn before then that "racing" isn't even really in my mind at DEs. I, like all who go to the track, am intensely competitive, and thus I much prefer to pass than be passed.
However, anyone who has ridden with me knows that I don't hesitate a second in giving a point by where appropriate, and I am also guilty of lifting when doing so even though the other car is much faster than mine. In fact, Starla was trying to get me to stop lifting when the supercharged 996, the GT3s and the 996TTs passed me. The bottom line is that I care most about becoming a great driver. The issue of speed and racing will take care of itself afterwards.
Last edited by TD in DC; 05-06-2005 at 12:15 PM.
05-06-2005, 01:13 PM
#60
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There was a guy at PDE with Hurley who drove him crazy with the shuffling, so much so, he made the guy drive a tip with his hands taped to the wheel 9-3! One of the instr at the pde told me that one, don't know if it's true, but it sounds like Hurley!